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> that isn't really how evolution works. Taking this a step further, finding intelligent life out there is simply impossible. The reason our intelligence is un

by maratd 15y ago

> that isn't really how evolution works. Taking this a step further, finding intelligent life out there is simply impossible. The reason our intelligence is unique to only humans on our planet is largely because we defined intelligence as traits that only we possess. We defined it based on our own nature. Finding life out there that would be socially compatible with us is ridiculously unlikely. That life would have had to spring up in an evolutionary environment identical to ours and that's so unlikely that it might as well be impossible.

cryptoz 15y ago
> Taking this a step further, finding intelligent life out there is simply impossible What? How can you take this position? That's absolutely crazy. Really, you're going to take observations from just a couple of decades and determine that finding something is "impossible"?! No way. There's absolutely no way that finding intelligent life is impossible. > The reason our intelligence is unique to only humans on our planet is largely because we defined intelligence as traits that only we possess Slow down there. Nobody is looking for "human intelligence" on other planets. Maybe that's why you think it's impossible. I'd say dolphins are intelligent. So are some of our computer systems. There's a lot more intelligence that we can recognize that isn't like ours. > Finding life out there that would be socially compatible with us is ridiculously unlikely. I agree. That has nothing to do with intelligence though. > That life would have had to spring up in an evolutionary environment identical to ours and that's so unlikely that it might as well be impossible. identical? Sure, nearly impossible. But why bother making it identical? Do you need 20.946% O2 in the atmosphere? Nope! There are probably billions of planets in the Milky Way alone that could support Earth-like life, if we extrapolate from the Kepler mission data. The chances are better than you might think.
- maratd 15y ago
  > Slow down there. Nobody is looking for "human intelligence" on other planets. Maybe that's why you think it's impossible. I'd say dolphins are intelligent. So are some of our computer systems. There's a lot more intelligence that we can recognize that isn't like ours. When I think of intelligent alien life, I think along the lines of Klingons, not alien dolphins. Are we going to find alien dolphins? Absolutely. Klingons? Nope.
  - cryptoz 15y ago
    > When I think of intelligent alien life, I think along the lines of Klingons, not alien dolphins. Are we going to find alien dolphins? Absolutely. Klingons? Nope. Why are you so sure that this is impossible, still? Aside from FTL travel, in what way are humans fundamentally different from Kingons? We both have space travel, some sentience, a taste for weapons, etc. You think this happened only once in the entire (say) Milky Way, and that there is absolutely 0 chance of it occurring elsewhere? That's certainly possible. But it's not the only possible way things have unfolded.
    - maratd 15y ago
      > Why are you so sure that this is impossible, still? Aside from FTL travel, in what way are humans fundamentally different from Kingons? You don't understand my argument. We (and our intelligence) are the unique product of our evolutionary environment. There is no tendency in evolution towards intelligence. There are far many more organisms on this planet in far greater numbers than us that don't even have a brain, nevermind a complex one like ours. We define intelligence based on traits that we (humans) possess. Some animals possess some of those traits (like dolphins, chimps, etc.), but no animal posses them all, save for us humans, by definition. For us to find a species that is identical or even just compatible with us psychologically, that species had to evolve in an identical evolutionary environment spanning millions of years. That is so astronomically unlikely that it might as well be impossible. You may find life that posses some of our traits (like dolphins), but you won't find life that has them all (like Klingons).
      - moe 15y ago
        astronomically unlikely Interesting choice of words. So while we're talking in astronomical terms: How big is the universe? How many earth-like planets does it contain? Are there other universes? Until we can answer at least one of these questions I would refrain from calling anything in this context "astronomically unlikely".
        daemin 15y ago
- wheels 15y ago
  > Nobody is looking for "human intelligence" on other planets. Maybe that's why you think it's impossible. I'd say dolphins are intelligent. One proviso there is that it'd be very hard to establish that there are dolphins on another planet since the only signature that we have to go on are things that manipulate the light spectrum. We could, perhaps, infer something from an atmospheric condition that we might someday be able to detect, but observe, for instance, how difficult it is for us to determine if there is or has ever been life on Mars, even though it's right next door. For all we know, there could be dolphins on Titan. Sending an exploratory probe that would take millennia to reach its target (and then several hundred years to send data back) will probably remain impractical for an extended period of time.
  - cryptoz 15y ago
    You cut out the part where I mentioned computer systems when you quoted me. That part was important. It was an attempt to show that there could be radio-communicating, non-human entities with entirely different 'intelligences'. > will probably remain impractical for an extended period of time. I don't deny that. I only deny that it's impossible.
jarin 15y ago
Well I mean, how would you define intelligent life that does not possess metacognition at a minimum?
jerfelix 15y ago
> we defined intelligence as traits that only we possess There's also an article on HN right now about Dolphins proving to be intelligent beings [1]. It says: Our research has provided an answer to an age-old question highlighted by Dr Jill Tarter of the SETI Institute, ‘Are we alone?’ We can now unequivocally answer, ‘no.’ SETI’s search for non-human intelligence in outer spacehas been found right here on earth in the graceful form of dolphins. I laughed to think that HUMAN'S analysis of whether a dolphin is intelligent is whether WE can understand their language. Using that logic, it seems my dog is more intelligent than me: He can understand some of my language as well as his own, whereas I can only understand my own. -- [1] http://wakeup-world.com//2011/11/28/the-discovery-of-dolphin-language/ http://wakeup-world.com//2011/11/28/the-discovery-of-dolphin...
- idonthack 15y ago
  >I laughed to think that HUMAN'S analysis of whether a dolphin is intelligent is whether WE can understand their language. >Using that logic, it seems my dog is more intelligent than me: He can understand some of my language as well as his own, whereas I can only understand my own. That's a false equivalence, as well as untrue. It takes intentional effort on our part for a dog to learn even a small subset of our vocabulary. When dogs learn our language, they only learn the few words that we make an effort to teach them, and these typically correspond directly to an action we demand of them in exchange for a reward. Dogs cannot pass this knowledge amongst themselves, each dog has to be taught by a human individually. Dogs have made no specific effort to teach me, at least none that they managed to make recognizable to me, yet I can tell when they are excited, hurt, angry, &c, but mostly because a subset of body language and vocal attitude are instinctive or socially universal to most mammals (shouting and sharp poses convey aggression, for example). I believe I understand more dog body language than dogs understand human body language. There is no human equivalent of a wagging tail, yet I understand that. There is no dog equivalent of a pointing finger, and they do not understand it: dogs will look at your finger instead of where you point.
- colanderman 15y ago
  I laughed to think that HUMAN'S analysis of whether a dolphin is intelligent is whether WE can understand their language. Using that logic, it seems my dog is more intelligent than me: He can understand some of my language as well as his own, whereas I can only understand my own. I agree with your sentiment but your logic is backward. Substitute dog for dolphin in your first sentence: [a] HUMAN'S analysis of whether a dog is intelligent is whether WE can understand their language. Since you cannot (by your own admission) understand your dog's language, by the logic of that statement, the dog would not be intelligent.

by maratd 15y ago

cryptoz 15y ago

> Taking this a step further, finding intelligent life out there is simply impossible What? How can you take this position? That's absolutely crazy. Really, you're going to take observations from just a couple of decades and determine that finding something is "impossible"?! No way. There's absolutely no way that finding intelligent life is impossible. > The reason our intelligence is unique to only humans on our planet is largely because we defined intelligence as traits that only we possess Slow down there. Nobody is looking for "human intelligence" on other planets. Maybe that's why you think it's impossible. I'd say dolphins are intelligent. So are some of our computer systems. There's a lot more intelligence that we can recognize that isn't like ours. > Finding life out there that would be socially compatible with us is ridiculously unlikely. I agree. That has nothing to do with intelligence though. > That life would have had to spring up in an evolutionary environment identical to ours and that's so unlikely that it might as well be impossible. identical? Sure, nearly impossible. But why bother making it identical? Do you need 20.946% O2 in the atmosphere? Nope! There are probably billions of planets in the Milky Way alone that could support Earth-like life, if we extrapolate from the Kepler mission data. The chances are better than you might think.

maratd 15y ago
> Slow down there. Nobody is looking for "human intelligence" on other planets. Maybe that's why you think it's impossible. I'd say dolphins are intelligent. So are some of our computer systems. There's a lot more intelligence that we can recognize that isn't like ours. When I think of intelligent alien life, I think along the lines of Klingons, not alien dolphins. Are we going to find alien dolphins? Absolutely. Klingons? Nope.
- cryptoz 15y ago
  > When I think of intelligent alien life, I think along the lines of Klingons, not alien dolphins. Are we going to find alien dolphins? Absolutely. Klingons? Nope. Why are you so sure that this is impossible, still? Aside from FTL travel, in what way are humans fundamentally different from Kingons? We both have space travel, some sentience, a taste for weapons, etc. You think this happened only once in the entire (say) Milky Way, and that there is absolutely 0 chance of it occurring elsewhere? That's certainly possible. But it's not the only possible way things have unfolded.
  - maratd 15y ago
    > Why are you so sure that this is impossible, still? Aside from FTL travel, in what way are humans fundamentally different from Kingons? You don't understand my argument. We (and our intelligence) are the unique product of our evolutionary environment. There is no tendency in evolution towards intelligence. There are far many more organisms on this planet in far greater numbers than us that don't even have a brain, nevermind a complex one like ours. We define intelligence based on traits that we (humans) possess. Some animals possess some of those traits (like dolphins, chimps, etc.), but no animal posses them all, save for us humans, by definition. For us to find a species that is identical or even just compatible with us psychologically, that species had to evolve in an identical evolutionary environment spanning millions of years. That is so astronomically unlikely that it might as well be impossible. You may find life that posses some of our traits (like dolphins), but you won't find life that has them all (like Klingons).
    - moe 15y ago
      astronomically unlikely Interesting choice of words. So while we're talking in astronomical terms: How big is the universe? How many earth-like planets does it contain? Are there other universes? Until we can answer at least one of these questions I would refrain from calling anything in this context "astronomically unlikely".
      - daemin 15y ago
wheels 15y ago
> Nobody is looking for "human intelligence" on other planets. Maybe that's why you think it's impossible. I'd say dolphins are intelligent. One proviso there is that it'd be very hard to establish that there are dolphins on another planet since the only signature that we have to go on are things that manipulate the light spectrum. We could, perhaps, infer something from an atmospheric condition that we might someday be able to detect, but observe, for instance, how difficult it is for us to determine if there is or has ever been life on Mars, even though it's right next door. For all we know, there could be dolphins on Titan. Sending an exploratory probe that would take millennia to reach its target (and then several hundred years to send data back) will probably remain impractical for an extended period of time.
- cryptoz 15y ago
  You cut out the part where I mentioned computer systems when you quoted me. That part was important. It was an attempt to show that there could be radio-communicating, non-human entities with entirely different 'intelligences'. > will probably remain impractical for an extended period of time. I don't deny that. I only deny that it's impossible.

jarin 15y ago

Well I mean, how would you define intelligent life that does not possess metacognition at a minimum?

jerfelix 15y ago

> we defined intelligence as traits that only we possess There's also an article on HN right now about Dolphins proving to be intelligent beings [1]. It says: Our research has provided an answer to an age-old question highlighted by Dr Jill Tarter of the SETI Institute, ‘Are we alone?’ We can now unequivocally answer, ‘no.’ SETI’s search for non-human intelligence in outer spacehas been found right here on earth in the graceful form of dolphins. I laughed to think that HUMAN'S analysis of whether a dolphin is intelligent is whether WE can understand their language. Using that logic, it seems my dog is more intelligent than me: He can understand some of my language as well as his own, whereas I can only understand my own. -- [1] http://wakeup-world.com//2011/11/28/the-discovery-of-dolphin-language/ http://wakeup-world.com//2011/11/28/the-discovery-of-dolphin...

idonthack 15y ago
>I laughed to think that HUMAN'S analysis of whether a dolphin is intelligent is whether WE can understand their language. >Using that logic, it seems my dog is more intelligent than me: He can understand some of my language as well as his own, whereas I can only understand my own. That's a false equivalence, as well as untrue. It takes intentional effort on our part for a dog to learn even a small subset of our vocabulary. When dogs learn our language, they only learn the few words that we make an effort to teach them, and these typically correspond directly to an action we demand of them in exchange for a reward. Dogs cannot pass this knowledge amongst themselves, each dog has to be taught by a human individually. Dogs have made no specific effort to teach me, at least none that they managed to make recognizable to me, yet I can tell when they are excited, hurt, angry, &c, but mostly because a subset of body language and vocal attitude are instinctive or socially universal to most mammals (shouting and sharp poses convey aggression, for example). I believe I understand more dog body language than dogs understand human body language. There is no human equivalent of a wagging tail, yet I understand that. There is no dog equivalent of a pointing finger, and they do not understand it: dogs will look at your finger instead of where you point.
colanderman 15y ago
I laughed to think that HUMAN'S analysis of whether a dolphin is intelligent is whether WE can understand their language. Using that logic, it seems my dog is more intelligent than me: He can understand some of my language as well as his own, whereas I can only understand my own. I agree with your sentiment but your logic is backward. Substitute dog for dolphin in your first sentence: [a] HUMAN'S analysis of whether a dog is intelligent is whether WE can understand their language. Since you cannot (by your own admission) understand your dog's language, by the logic of that statement, the dog would not be intelligent.