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Ask HN: Why is Japan so insular?

• ajl666 4y ago
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• throwayyy479087 4y ago
  They are literally an island nation
• tboyd47 4y ago
  I think it happens in certain circumstances to any type of people, not just East Asian. The same could be said for the Turks. They are also very much into their own culture, and are ethnically homogenous, despite being previously an inclusive and imperial society. The United States can be said to be like that to an extent but with two separate cultures instead of one.
  • graderjs 4y ago
    Agree with that. From the limited experience i have with Turkey, they are very unique and independent. I like that about them, they're very much their own country. Interesting place, mix of Asia and West.
  • senkora 4y ago
    I hesitate to say this, but I think we do have to acknowledge that Turkey is only ethnically homogeneous because of 1) the mutual ethnic cleansing by Turkey and Greece of of Anatolian Greeks and Greek Turks 2) the Armenian Genocide 3) heavy discrimination against Turkish Kurds
    • tboyd47 4y ago
      The United States has this kind of story.
• themodelplumber 4y ago
  There are probably lots of reasons. For one, monoculture can develop when a culture looks backward in a convergent way, developing "the" story of itself, and deriving lessons and forward-facing stances therefrom. This itself was a strong tradition in Japanese culture for what, over a thousand years? It's still very obviously a valued practice in Japan. Even the cultural trauma narratives have legend-style stories to them, which is interesting in lots of ways but by definition very closed off in others. The same traits can be observed in organizational culture in general, for example in high-demand (of their membership) religions and certain businesses. If you combine this with things like geographic isolation (the island excuse gets thrown around a lot), specific cultural movements, a couple of well-timed typhoons, etc., the additional isolation effect has throughout time been able to seal out new perspectives and recirculate more of the previous ones. A lot of specific and very beautiful refinements can thrive in these kind of circumstances though, so it's not all bad news. Just some thoughts.
  • graderjs 4y ago
    Agree, I wouldn't say it's bad news necessarily. Just different. I mean some things can be bad, sure...I think other cultures you can learn from, but like you say...there's perfection of stuff; refinement. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, interesting! :)
• PaulHoule 4y ago
  I would point to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokugawa_shogunate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokugawa_shogunate as this behavior at its peak. There is still a lot of nostaglia for this period in Japan, for instance the (excellent I think) anime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gin_Tama https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gin_Tama is set in a fictionalized version of the subsequent Meiji Period and communicates how people at that time felt they'd lost control of their culture. Historians are not really kind to the Tokugawa period which if I had to characterize in a sentence it would be "Samurai were big shots but they'd forgotten how to cut your head off with a katana", the book https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture_of_Narcissism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture_of_Narcissism is frequently seen as a critique of "postmodern times" in the US but it's commonly seen in Japan as relevant to that period.
• chimineycricket 4y ago
  Many cultures hold on to tradition because it's like rappelling down a cliff. Rappel too fast and you're in free fall. Keep it controlled and you won't descend into crazy untested ideas. America didn't keep its traditional values which is why we lack so much of the decency the Japanese show. As a small stupid example: In Japan you can leave a vending machine out in the middle of nowhere unattended (except for restocking) and it won't get stolen from or destroyed. In America it wouldn't last a day unfortunately.
• superchroma 4y ago
  An odd question. They're coming out of, as you note, hundreds of years of isolation. Yes, it's a long time since Commodore Perry set foot on the island, but culture moves slowly and historic behaviors leave evidence for centuries afterwards. Consider how national policies and attitudes around the world have changed over the centuries beyond the scope of your own lifespan. Look at how trends change over large timescales. Consider eating utensils, currencies, attitudes to sexuality, etc.
  • graderjs 4y ago
    But I suppose, why did they isolate in the first place? Plenty of places have been 'isolated' by geography....but then they opened up...Japan resists that...uniquely...right? I mean, that's kind of special. Why? Do you think, like apart from just the general thing of: we didn't have any other influences and culture moves slowly? Now the world is awash in influences...you can open up or you can stay insular. Japan makes a choice...I'm interested in why...do you think that's something special about Japanese or it's just everywhere?
    • superchroma 4y ago
      I would say it's down to the current balance of appetite for conservative policy, as a function of inertia from a conservative history. Perhaps let's examine the question. Many countries 'opened up'. Japan did also, and readily adopted foreign processes and technologies in the 20th century. If we're referring to immigration, then, sure, they're not keen on it. On that point, they're not actually alone. Countries like Poland are very insular and don't welcome non-whites. Saudi Arabia does not allow casual tourist visa visits and people are typically required to have letters of invitation to enter (https://lifeinsaudiarabia.net/importance-of-invitation-letter-in/ https://lifeinsaudiarabia.net/importance-of-invitation-lette...) I wouldn't refer to their attitude as unique, then.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• yakubin 4y ago
  What do you mean by “integrating culturally with others”? What would be examples of that?
  • graderjs 4y ago
    Good point. There's always divisions (with any culture we can say 'integrates well' with other cultures)...let me think about it for a day, it's pretty late here-- and I'll probably get back to you--hopefully with something more clear. There's something there, I just don't know how to put it into more words right now.
    • graderjs 4y ago
      My first draft response is: basically like I feel like folks from Western Nations are essentially pretty good migrants to anywhere in the world in the sense that we don't have too much of a strong culture ourselves where we will migrate to a place and then form little Anglo communities where we only mix among ourselves (so we do that to some extent, Discovery Bay in HK and compounds in Saudi Arabia, eg--but that's not our only option) but we will also kind of migrate to a place you know independently as individuals or small groups and then sort of set up shop and basically like adopt the local culture and try to integrate ourselves and you know transact and trade and stuff. It's essentially kind of similar to how the southern Chinese ("world best migrants"are) are very migratory and they kind of migrate anywhere in the world with the difference being that the Chinese will often set up a sort of like a local monoculture so that Chinatown kind of place and still kind of maintain a strong culture where as in the west we have sort of a looser idea or own culture and I think we're more flexible. But I don't see the Japanese having a correlate in either of these activities: they don't really seem so migratory and when they do migrate they don't really seem to do the same sort of integration or mercantile sort of transaction that the westerners or the Chinese do. Also we can take a look at their country--JP--and while Western Nations commonly include (not all) but commonly include folks from all over the world (and there's certainly still plenty of racism from the dominant anglo cultures but there's still inclusion of folks from all over the world) and immigration policies that are more open. whereas in Japan I think there's obviously stricter and more xenophobic immigration policies but also there's less of this sense of groups from all over the world to the same extent coming in and forming sort of a community there. It's much more of an exotic thing I think for non Japanese people to move to Japan (while it certainly existent and occurs to some extent), the degree is much less I think than the type of air quotes multiculturalism you'll see in you know a western nation. And other nations as well it's not exclusively Western but I think Japan stands out for having a sort of xenophobic monoculture that's quite insular and so that's sort of what I'm talking to. But this is just a first draft kind of elaboration I could probably say a lot more so I'll see you know where that sticks with you and lands on anything and where you take that.
• mblatt1 4y ago
• twangist 4y ago
  You're aware that "insular" means "island-like"?
  • graderjs 4y ago
    That's one meaning. It has other meanings, too, tho. You're aware of them, too, right? There's lots of islands in the world, smaller islands than Japan too, that are coherent cultures...but Japan seems to stand out for its insularity...You think not?
• SnooSux 4y ago
  While I respect you asking a legitimate question, I would recommend being cautious while reading this thread. Discussions about Japanese culture, and foreign cultures in general, tend to be dominated by westerners retelling ideas they've read by other western people on the internet. Japan not having a large presence in American social networks makes it especially vulnerable to exoticization, speculation, and exaggeration of issues in the country. Especially when the discussion is largely (not always) the result of a long game of telephone. I'm sure the commenters mean well, just take everything with a grain of salt and do some of your own research into the ideas presented here.
  • graderjs 4y ago
    I don't know...I think this is overcautious--and actually too dismissive of the views of non-japanese people, it sort of sounds like you think we need to discount those views, but I think that's pretty racist (a racist stereotype like if you're not Japanese then you can't think or talk about the culture in anything but a stupid way...very racist to say so), and maybe a part of the insularity I'm trying to investigate!--because the idea of insularity is about cultural interaction across cultures, so the opinions of other cultures and their experiences of Japan is vitally important...it can't just be from Japanese people as you seem to be suggesting, we have to listen to everyone from everywhere, that's the point of this question, which I don't think you got. So....But actually, I aimed to elicit the response from Japanese people about their own culture. I think there's an unintentional trend to view this as negative...I want to encourage Japanese people to tell the story of their insular culture in a positive way...I really just want to understand it. I thought that could kind of happen here, but maybe not today as it looks like this question has been flagged--for some reason? Oh well...HN can't be the forum for everything. I guess I'll have to rely on 1st hand experience again. It's not bad, 1st hand experience is probably better than something you can hear on a forum anyway. I would just love to hear some views from some Japanese people...I know they are here
    • chimineycricket 4y ago
      Shame people flag this...it's an interesting and valid question. I can't fathom why its flagged.
• ananiochita 4y ago
  Why is Japan like Japan ? Read about "uchi" and "soto", and how Japanese society was, is, and most likely will be for the foreseeable future, since the gates of Immigration are still closed -- other than for the revolving door they open slightly for sorely needed temporary workers, never to let them stay. Japanese society is quite different from Chinese society -- whether from China, Taiwan, or elsewhere. From any other, really. I don't blame them though. Every time I visit the West it just feels like going to hell. ( In Japan for three decades, married to Japanese with Japanese children, who are called, of course, "half". And yet they have a better life in Japan than they could anywhere else. We've been hearing about the decline of Japan since the 90s. Still waiting for it to be the horrible place everyone keeps warning it's becoming. )
• smitty1e 4y ago
  'Insula' is literally the Latin word for 'island'. The geography might inform the culture.
• LZ_Khan 4y ago
  I actually like how the Japanese have preserved their culture. With East Asian nations it is easy to fall into the trap of over-westernization as many of Japan's counterparts have done. I think South Korea is the most prominent example. Korea gave me a very off-putting vibe when I visited. It felt like a massive, heartless tribute to capitalism. I got the sense of a certain perversion of western culture, where a glorification of American culture but no real understanding of it resulted in a strange and confused interpretation that struggles to mix with traditional Korean culture. Japan on the other hand came across as actually a socialist nation. Wealth tax is heavy and the top bracket of earners don't make much more than the average. There wasn't this glorification of wealth that's so prevalent in western societies. Moreover, in contrast to western nations that prioritize self-interest, they are so organized and respectful of top-down policymaking that it can be seen as a fault in many cases. It made me think if there was one country that could handle climate change, it would be Japan. Preservation of these different perspectives makes the world interesting, and allows us to learn from each other. Being "insular" is a great thing, in my opinion.
  • graderjs 4y ago
    I like your analysis. I don't think the socioeconomic policies need to mean cultural insularity but they might do. Still I think Japan's insular monoculture is independent of its (albeit admirable? I guess) economic policy in a causative sense.
• nomatikco 4y ago
  This book might interest you: Culture Hacks: Deciphering Differences in American, Chinese, and Japanese Thinking https://www.amazon.com/Culture-Hacks-Deciphering-Differences-American-ebook/dp/B07RD19YVX/ https://www.amazon.com/Culture-Hacks-Deciphering-Differences...
  • graderjs 4y ago
    Thank you! :) Added to my list
• ninethirty 4y ago
  Why would they want that? Groups with strong ethnic identity (like the Japanese) want their lands to be inherited by their descendants; this is the default historical position. But atm the Japanese are going to zero with their low birthrate, so idk.
  • midoridensha 4y ago
    The birthrate in Japan isn't that much lower than the US, and it's higher than China and much higher than South Korea. All the developed nations have low birthrates now, so it's not unique to Japan, though it is lower than most.
    • ninethirty 4y ago
      1.3 is far below the minimum replacement rate of 2.1. Israel is a developed nation that's not going to zero with 3.01.
• _blz2 4y ago
  Its their country. Not every nation has to turn into a western cult.
• twobytes 4y ago