4 ms·

The system of "liberal democracy" has already created an environment where we're totally locked in with a few very large corporations -- Google, Meta, Apple, P

The system of "liberal democracy" has already created an environment where we're totally locked in with a few very large corporations -- Google, Meta, Apple, PayPal.

Karellen 4y ago
* neoliberal democracy
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
twblalock 4y ago
You listed four options that consumers have to choose from. Our market is already different than the one that led to an "everything app" in China. Whatever Elon builds will have to compete with all of those existing options, most of which are backed by major players with deep pockets. The result of such competition is going to push everyone in the space to try harder, which will probably benefit consumers.
- em-bee 4y ago
  those are not four options i can choose from. each one has a monopoly to some aspect in our lives. there are no viable alternatives to facebook. there are no alternatives to apple if i want to reach a significant amount of people (all iphone users) likewise there are no viable alternatives to google play or youtube if i want to reach a lot of people with my apps or videos. ok, there probably are some alternatives to paypal, so that one is weak.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Paypal has some alternatives, but try to receive payment for dirty stuff or wrong think and you'll quickly discover just how wide the VISA/MC arm is. Currently crypto is doing some heavy lifting here, but it has its own issues.
  - cgrealy 4y ago
    Are you looking at it as someone doing business with them or as an end user? I agree that if you're an app developer, you cannot ignore Apple, but as an end user many people can (and do) completely ignore Apple, Facebook and Paypal. Google can be avoided, but it's significantly more work to do so.
    - em-bee 4y ago
      yes, exactly, except with facebook. if all my friends and family are on facebook and not elsewhere, then it's not possible to avoid it.
      - twblalock 4y ago
        But wouldn’t that be true even if other social networks existed, but your friends and family all still chose Facebook? (That is pretty much why Facebook is the only big one still around -- Myspace and Google both tried and failed. People had choice, and they picked a winner.) Putting it another way, concentration and popularity don't mean there are no choices. It just means that the majority of consumers have chosen one or two of the options. That's different from the WeChat situation. Another difference: you are free to avoid Facebook, even if your friends and family are on it. A lot of people do. Just ask them to phone you or use email. However, in China, if you don't have a WeChat account there are a lot of places where you just won't be able to pay for things because WePay is the only accepted form of payment. Imagine if every restauraunt, retailer, etc. in your city would only accept Google Pay -- and they wouldn't even take cash. That is what an unavoidable service actually looks like.
        em-bee 4y ago
        yes, the problem is the walled garden that these services create. Just ask them to phone you or use email i can ask them, but i can't force them. reality is that without facebook i am excluded from a lot activities because i can't demand that everyone accommodate my unwillingness to be on facebook. the same is true on wechat. there are a lot of groups that simply do not exist outside of facebook or wechat, and a lot of social contacts and activities would simply stop if i were to leave. having someones phone number or email means i can contact them if there is something important, but it doesn't mean that it will get me invited to activities. that only works for a handful of very close friends and relatives, but not for the wider circle of loose friends and acquaintances. wechat pay is not as bad actually. i usually avoid using it (if only to test how they react) and in most cases there was no problem to use cash as an alternative. there were a few exceptions where someone at the counter used their own wechat account to pay for me and i gave them cash in private, but i can't remember that i was ever refused service. especially as a foreigner, people are more likely to believe that i really can't pay with wechat. if we had multiple social network with a significant user base then most interesting groups would be active on all of them and i could choose. it would also be easier to argue that i don't want to be on more than one service instead of giving the impression that i am a luddite that rejects modern technology.
- make3 4y ago
  there's no way I trust Elon with any of my data
robbitt 4y ago
Apple basically is an everything app embedded on an everything device.
js2 4y ago
The way I see it, we haven’t ever really had a liberal democracy. Rather we’ve always had a conservative minority with different rules for the rich and powerful from the rest of us. The New Deal was an attempt at a liberal democracy with a united working class, but that only lasted till the civil rights movement started to extend the benefits of liberal democracy beyond white people. That gave conservatives the wedge they needed to divide up the working class again. Since then, the working class has been arguing among itself while the rich and powerful reap the rewards. I’d call that conservative capitalism, not liberal democracy.
- droptablemain 4y ago
  One could argue that the New Deal was an attempt to stave off revolution from a desperate working class, at a time when revolution was the main trend in the world. The long-term effects certainly benefited the capitalist class far more than the workers; I think the current environment speaks for itself.

The system of "liberal democracy" has already created an environment where we're totally locked in with a few very large corporations -- Google, Meta, Apple, PayPal.

Karellen 4y ago

* neoliberal democracy

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

twblalock 4y ago

You listed four options that consumers have to choose from. Our market is already different than the one that led to an "everything app" in China. Whatever Elon builds will have to compete with all of those existing options, most of which are backed by major players with deep pockets. The result of such competition is going to push everyone in the space to try harder, which will probably benefit consumers.

em-bee 4y ago
those are not four options i can choose from. each one has a monopoly to some aspect in our lives. there are no viable alternatives to facebook. there are no alternatives to apple if i want to reach a significant amount of people (all iphone users) likewise there are no viable alternatives to google play or youtube if i want to reach a lot of people with my apps or videos. ok, there probably are some alternatives to paypal, so that one is weak.
- bombcar 4y ago
  Paypal has some alternatives, but try to receive payment for dirty stuff or wrong think and you'll quickly discover just how wide the VISA/MC arm is. Currently crypto is doing some heavy lifting here, but it has its own issues.
- cgrealy 4y ago
  Are you looking at it as someone doing business with them or as an end user? I agree that if you're an app developer, you cannot ignore Apple, but as an end user many people can (and do) completely ignore Apple, Facebook and Paypal. Google can be avoided, but it's significantly more work to do so.
  - em-bee 4y ago
    yes, exactly, except with facebook. if all my friends and family are on facebook and not elsewhere, then it's not possible to avoid it.
    - twblalock 4y ago
      But wouldn’t that be true even if other social networks existed, but your friends and family all still chose Facebook? (That is pretty much why Facebook is the only big one still around -- Myspace and Google both tried and failed. People had choice, and they picked a winner.) Putting it another way, concentration and popularity don't mean there are no choices. It just means that the majority of consumers have chosen one or two of the options. That's different from the WeChat situation. Another difference: you are free to avoid Facebook, even if your friends and family are on it. A lot of people do. Just ask them to phone you or use email. However, in China, if you don't have a WeChat account there are a lot of places where you just won't be able to pay for things because WePay is the only accepted form of payment. Imagine if every restauraunt, retailer, etc. in your city would only accept Google Pay -- and they wouldn't even take cash. That is what an unavoidable service actually looks like.
      - em-bee 4y ago
        yes, the problem is the walled garden that these services create. Just ask them to phone you or use email i can ask them, but i can't force them. reality is that without facebook i am excluded from a lot activities because i can't demand that everyone accommodate my unwillingness to be on facebook. the same is true on wechat. there are a lot of groups that simply do not exist outside of facebook or wechat, and a lot of social contacts and activities would simply stop if i were to leave. having someones phone number or email means i can contact them if there is something important, but it doesn't mean that it will get me invited to activities. that only works for a handful of very close friends and relatives, but not for the wider circle of loose friends and acquaintances. wechat pay is not as bad actually. i usually avoid using it (if only to test how they react) and in most cases there was no problem to use cash as an alternative. there were a few exceptions where someone at the counter used their own wechat account to pay for me and i gave them cash in private, but i can't remember that i was ever refused service. especially as a foreigner, people are more likely to believe that i really can't pay with wechat. if we had multiple social network with a significant user base then most interesting groups would be active on all of them and i could choose. it would also be easier to argue that i don't want to be on more than one service instead of giving the impression that i am a luddite that rejects modern technology.
make3 4y ago
there's no way I trust Elon with any of my data

robbitt 4y ago

Apple basically is an everything app embedded on an everything device.

js2 4y ago

The way I see it, we haven’t ever really had a liberal democracy. Rather we’ve always had a conservative minority with different rules for the rich and powerful from the rest of us. The New Deal was an attempt at a liberal democracy with a united working class, but that only lasted till the civil rights movement started to extend the benefits of liberal democracy beyond white people. That gave conservatives the wedge they needed to divide up the working class again. Since then, the working class has been arguing among itself while the rich and powerful reap the rewards. I’d call that conservative capitalism, not liberal democracy.

droptablemain 4y ago
One could argue that the New Deal was an attempt to stave off revolution from a desperate working class, at a time when revolution was the main trend in the world. The long-term effects certainly benefited the capitalist class far more than the workers; I think the current environment speaks for itself.