4 ms·

Fantastic progress. My only concern is looking at it... I can't help but worry slightly about feature creep. We went from an OS, to an OS + Web Browser, to an

Fantastic progress. My only concern is looking at it... I can't help but worry slightly about feature creep. We went from an OS, to an OS + Web Browser, to an OS + Web Browser + Programming Language. Next year it might add an Office Suite at this rate. Edit: I don't mean this as a bad thing, just that it would be a shame to get so large that everything becomes half-baked and overwhelming to finish.

trashburger 4y ago
Feature creep kinda defines the project. It's not a bug, it's a feature. :^)
- russtrotter 4y ago
  Absolutely agreed. I've watched lots of his long-form videos on all those topics and initially I was always scratching my head as to why he'd want to reinvent all these wheels from the molecules up, but as I watched more, I realized that he's a journey guy, not necessarily a destination guy. To his credit, he's attracted a similarly-minded following of contributors along the way.
- aliqot 4y ago
  while endearing, it does endanger the trajectory of the main feature. 'how many paid FT devs are being added per feature' is what should be asked. People asking "Is it fun" are missing the point. Don't 'fun' yourself into a job under terms you didn't get to negotiate, state your requirements and adjust your work funnel accordingly. I've witnessed a lot of 'fun' projects manifest themselves into serious projects that fall apart because this forethought was neglected.
  - mynameisvlad 4y ago
    > how many paid FT devs are being added per feature Well, considering this is a fun project being worked on by volunteers (some of whom are sponsored by the community), I'm going to go out on a limb and say the answer to this question will always be "zero".
  - Huh1337 4y ago
    The only question that should be asked is "is this fun?"
  - bee_rider 4y ago
    I'm not sure what the financials of the SerentiyOS project look like. It sounds like he streams the development. If that's his primary source of income, then doing the fun stuff seems like it enhances the revenue stream? (edit: based on other comments, it sounds like donations rather than streaming revenue are the major source of income, although I bet the goodwill from having such an open development process help with the donations).
  - wtetzner 4y ago
    > People asking "Is it fun" are missing the point. Are they? I thought the whole point of the entire project was fun.
nurbel 4y ago
Well, there's been a spreadsheet app for a while :^) https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/tree/master/Userland/Applications/Spreadsheet https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/tree/master/Userland/...
- emptyparadise 4y ago
  Just need a MacWrite-grade app that can export to PDF and SerenityOffice can be sold in a nice big box with a pile of floppies.
bombcar 4y ago
An OS without a web browser is hardly an OS anymore; Microsoft won on that regard (credit to Bill for recognizing that). But in general if you have something like this, it's often better to let it go where it wanders, even if it never attains the success of Linux, etc. Forcing a restricted scope often leads to burnout which kills it even faster.
- bornfreddy 4y ago
  > An OS without a web browser is hardly an OS anymore; Microsoft won on that regard (credit to Bill for recognizing that). Sorry, but no, just no. MS (correctly) recognized the threat that browser poses to OS through webaps. They bundled IE with Windows, however their bundling was a simple and effective (and monopolistic) strategy to take away market share from the then-leading browser, Netscape. Yes, OS needs a browser. No, MS and Bill had nothing to do with that (and they artificially slowed down web the best they could - hello IE6!). I do agree with the rest, but to credit MS that every OS needs a browser nowadays... Just no.
  - moreira 4y ago
    It seems like you -are- crediting MS for bundling a browser with an OS. Their reasons are irrelevant. OSs didn’t come with browsers. Microsoft bundled IE with Windows. Now every OS comes with a browser.
    - bornfreddy 4y ago
      Of course they did, or if they didn't, browser was one of the first things installed. Windows was nothing new in this regard. What was new was that OS was deeply connected to browser, so that uninstalling it was not an option. But that is not what GP claimed, and that is of course not a rule with newer OSs. But anyway, let's talk about this great new SerenityOS instead. :) Over and out.
      - pjmlp 4y ago
        As proven by Web widgets on mobile OSes, game consoles and TV firmware, they were just ahead of their time. :)
esprehn 4y ago
You missed GML, the compile time markup language for the UI: https://man.serenityos.org/man5/GML-Introduction.html https://man.serenityos.org/man5/GML-Introduction.html Ex. https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/blob/master/Userland/Applications/Spreadsheet/select_format_page.gml https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/blob/master/Userland/... In general the scope creep is because Kling and co are all about fun and code beauty. And to their credit, the code is beautiful. :)
chatterhead 4y ago
Would it still be feature creep if the number of competent volunteers/workers increases in equal measure? Couldn't we just call that a more robust feature fulfillment pipeline?
forgotpwd16 4y ago
For many people a web browser and an office suite is all they use a computer for. If anything an office suite should be expected.
- nomel 4y ago
  I have trouble believing that an OS, especially a graphical one, can be effectively developed/tested without having some GUI apps developed in parallel. Eat your own dog food and all.
armchairhacker 4y ago
this is actually mentioned in the article, by one of the quoted people. It works out because of loose coupling + many contributors. People will work on the web browser and others will work on the main OS, and there aren’t too many conflicts or places where each team has to coordinate. It also works because making a basic OS or web browser or programming language is not hard, 90% of the work goes into the final 10% of perfection. You can a) make minor improvements to the base OS, or b) create an entirely new program and a burst of seemingly-rapid development; SerenityOS is a passion project, so many people choose b. Furthermore, many of the people working on the OS are still doing so, and some of the people working on the web browser may not have joined without it. So maybe it’s slowing down progress on the main OS but not by too much, the main OS is still improving. Honestly I kind of predict people will start to branch off and work on a Serenity office, and Serenity painter and Serenity DAW and Serenity calendar and Serenity game engine. This is basically what KDE has done.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
BirAdam 4y ago
Well, there’s tons of room for improvement over that tools that exist on other OSs/platforms, so why not?
jaza 4y ago
To stay true to the theme of being 90s-inspired, the office suite will have to include: Serenity Works!

trashburger 4y ago

Feature creep kinda defines the project. It's not a bug, it's a feature. :^)

russtrotter 4y ago
Absolutely agreed. I've watched lots of his long-form videos on all those topics and initially I was always scratching my head as to why he'd want to reinvent all these wheels from the molecules up, but as I watched more, I realized that he's a journey guy, not necessarily a destination guy. To his credit, he's attracted a similarly-minded following of contributors along the way.
aliqot 4y ago
while endearing, it does endanger the trajectory of the main feature. 'how many paid FT devs are being added per feature' is what should be asked. People asking "Is it fun" are missing the point. Don't 'fun' yourself into a job under terms you didn't get to negotiate, state your requirements and adjust your work funnel accordingly. I've witnessed a lot of 'fun' projects manifest themselves into serious projects that fall apart because this forethought was neglected.
- mynameisvlad 4y ago
  > how many paid FT devs are being added per feature Well, considering this is a fun project being worked on by volunteers (some of whom are sponsored by the community), I'm going to go out on a limb and say the answer to this question will always be "zero".
- Huh1337 4y ago
  The only question that should be asked is "is this fun?"
- bee_rider 4y ago
  I'm not sure what the financials of the SerentiyOS project look like. It sounds like he streams the development. If that's his primary source of income, then doing the fun stuff seems like it enhances the revenue stream? (edit: based on other comments, it sounds like donations rather than streaming revenue are the major source of income, although I bet the goodwill from having such an open development process help with the donations).
- wtetzner 4y ago
  > People asking "Is it fun" are missing the point. Are they? I thought the whole point of the entire project was fun.

nurbel 4y ago

Well, there's been a spreadsheet app for a while :^) https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/tree/master/Userland/Applications/Spreadsheet https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/tree/master/Userland/...

emptyparadise 4y ago
Just need a MacWrite-grade app that can export to PDF and SerenityOffice can be sold in a nice big box with a pile of floppies.

bombcar 4y ago

An OS without a web browser is hardly an OS anymore; Microsoft won on that regard (credit to Bill for recognizing that). But in general if you have something like this, it's often better to let it go where it wanders, even if it never attains the success of Linux, etc. Forcing a restricted scope often leads to burnout which kills it even faster.

bornfreddy 4y ago
> An OS without a web browser is hardly an OS anymore; Microsoft won on that regard (credit to Bill for recognizing that). Sorry, but no, just no. MS (correctly) recognized the threat that browser poses to OS through webaps. They bundled IE with Windows, however their bundling was a simple and effective (and monopolistic) strategy to take away market share from the then-leading browser, Netscape. Yes, OS needs a browser. No, MS and Bill had nothing to do with that (and they artificially slowed down web the best they could - hello IE6!). I do agree with the rest, but to credit MS that every OS needs a browser nowadays... Just no.
- moreira 4y ago
  It seems like you -are- crediting MS for bundling a browser with an OS. Their reasons are irrelevant. OSs didn’t come with browsers. Microsoft bundled IE with Windows. Now every OS comes with a browser.
  - bornfreddy 4y ago
    Of course they did, or if they didn't, browser was one of the first things installed. Windows was nothing new in this regard. What was new was that OS was deeply connected to browser, so that uninstalling it was not an option. But that is not what GP claimed, and that is of course not a rule with newer OSs. But anyway, let's talk about this great new SerenityOS instead. :) Over and out.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      As proven by Web widgets on mobile OSes, game consoles and TV firmware, they were just ahead of their time. :)

esprehn 4y ago

You missed GML, the compile time markup language for the UI: https://man.serenityos.org/man5/GML-Introduction.html https://man.serenityos.org/man5/GML-Introduction.html Ex. https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/blob/master/Userland/Applications/Spreadsheet/select_format_page.gml https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/blob/master/Userland/... In general the scope creep is because Kling and co are all about fun and code beauty. And to their credit, the code is beautiful. :)

chatterhead 4y ago

Would it still be feature creep if the number of competent volunteers/workers increases in equal measure? Couldn't we just call that a more robust feature fulfillment pipeline?

forgotpwd16 4y ago

For many people a web browser and an office suite is all they use a computer for. If anything an office suite should be expected.

nomel 4y ago
I have trouble believing that an OS, especially a graphical one, can be effectively developed/tested without having some GUI apps developed in parallel. Eat your own dog food and all.

armchairhacker 4y ago

this is actually mentioned in the article, by one of the quoted people. It works out because of loose coupling + many contributors. People will work on the web browser and others will work on the main OS, and there aren’t too many conflicts or places where each team has to coordinate. It also works because making a basic OS or web browser or programming language is not hard, 90% of the work goes into the final 10% of perfection. You can a) make minor improvements to the base OS, or b) create an entirely new program and a burst of seemingly-rapid development; SerenityOS is a passion project, so many people choose b. Furthermore, many of the people working on the OS are still doing so, and some of the people working on the web browser may not have joined without it. So maybe it’s slowing down progress on the main OS but not by too much, the main OS is still improving. Honestly I kind of predict people will start to branch off and work on a Serenity office, and Serenity painter and Serenity DAW and Serenity calendar and Serenity game engine. This is basically what KDE has done.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

BirAdam 4y ago

Well, there’s tons of room for improvement over that tools that exist on other OSs/platforms, so why not?

jaza 4y ago

To stay true to the theme of being 90s-inspired, the office suite will have to include: Serenity Works!