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They are absolutely right to do this, and private users should be wary as well. DJI's application (Mimo) has been banned from the Android Play Store for some t
by magic_hamster 4y ago
They are absolutely right to do this, and private users should be wary as well.
DJI's application (Mimo) has been banned from the Android Play Store for some time, with no explanation given by DJI. They offer an APK to side load, which is completely unsupervised, and requires access to your phone's accurate location and other invasive permissions no matter which of their products you are using.
This is an important detail. Your phone location might be helpful when using drones (though GPS should be on the drone, not your phone) but there is absolutely no reason to use it for something like a phone stabilizer, which it absolutely requires and will not let you continue unless you turn it on.
I did not reverse engineer their application but I will be surprised if there isn't a copious amount of data being sent to the back office.
You might not care as an individual, but then maybe ten years from now you will visit China, and they might know about you more than you're comfortable sharing.
As a side note, Aljazeera is comically ridiculous: https://imgur.com/a/HnbLy4O https://imgur.com/a/HnbLy4O
- resoluteteeth 4y ago> GPS might be helpful for drones (though it should be on the drone, not your phone) but there is absolutely no reason to use it for something like a phone stabilizer Wouldn't the app need GPS permissions just to show you where the drone is on a map, etc.?
- magic_hamster 4y ago> Wouldn't the app need GPS permissions just to show you where the drone is on a map? How so? The drone can send its own location. The app might show you your location on the map, but that's not mandatory for operating a drone. It is a good user experience, I admit, but you can operate drones without this. And it doesn't explain why phone stabilizers require location access. Tried it myself with the OM 5.
- donkeyd 4y agoNo, it doesn't, since the drone will show you where the drone is. For your own location relative to the drone, it is though. You can do without, but just showing home (take off) location on the map is not ideal.
- mschuster91 4y ago> GPS might be helpful for drones (though it should be on the drone, not your phone) Actually, for the new EU regulations, you need to broadcast both the position of the drone and of the operator, at least for everything above class C1 ("remote ID", see [1]). And in any case, drones without working GPS are not fun to fly. DJI's Mini 3 Pro (and its larger friends) can do by using the collision-avoidance stereo cameras, but others I wouldn't dare risk running indoors. [1] https://www.drohnen.de/20336/drohnen-gesetze-eu/ https://www.drohnen.de/20336/drohnen-gesetze-eu/
- magic_hamster 4y agoWhile this is interesting (broadcast to whom exactly?) my main point is that DJI demands access to your smartphone location even for products that clearly have no use for this information, while giving you a sideloaded app which is banned from the official store. To me, these point to a trust issue.
- mschuster91 4y ago> While this is interesting (broadcast to whom exactly?) It's hard to find any information about how Remote-ID is supposed to work, but in theory the ID packets are sent by WiFi NAN and Bluetooth so that they can be received by anyone in the radio range (which is quite important for authorities to track down violators, e.g. people flying around hospital helipads). Unfortunately, current phones seem to lack support hardware-wise (see [1], page 6). [1] https://www.cencenelec.eu/media/CEN-CENELEC/Events/Webinars/2021-02-09_qa_report_uas_workshop.pdf https://www.cencenelec.eu/media/CEN-CENELEC/Events/Webinars/...
- sgtnoodle 4y agoI'm not familiar with the EU side of things, but I am familiar with the FAA's regulations in the USA. The FAA hasn't specified an implementation. It's on the manufacturer to come up with a means of compliance, and then get the FAA to sign off on it. There is a standard put out by the ASTM, which is heavily based on an open source project, OpenDroneID. The standard moved away from NAN in the draft phase, in favor of vendor elements in 802.11 beacon frames. You can choose 802.11 or Bluetooth Low Energy. If you choose 802.11, 2.4ghz is required and 5ghz is recommended. If you choose BLE, v4 is required, and doing v5 as well is recommended.
- ceejayoz 4y ago> GPS might be helpful for drones (though it should be on the drone, not your phone) but there is absolutely no reason to use it for something like a phone stabilizer, which it absolutely requires and will not let you continue unless you turn it on. It’s for the flight restriction system. Won’t let you fly near schools, power plants, airports etc.
- magic_hamster 4y agoThis might not be the best way to go about it because what you care about in this scenario is the location of the drone, not the operator, who might stand outside the no flight zone. Which is another reason to use the drone's GPS signal in the app instead of your phone location. Either way when using a drone they will know your location, but there's no reason to let DJI access this information when using every single product they make.
- mbreese 4y agoIt might download a new restriction zone set based upon where the operator is. Without knowing anything about the internals of the drone, it would not be possible for the drone to have a full set of restricted areas for the planet. They change, get updated, etc… For a drone, I understand the requirement. If you are using a drone, giving up your personal GPS location isn’t a big ask. You must be within sight line of your drone and the FAA may have a legitimate reason for knowing your personal location. (For most uses)
- kayodelycaon 4y agoI don't see why a drone couldn't have a massive set of lat-long boundaries unless disk space or CPU is severely limited. Text doesn't take up much space.
- thetinguy 4y agoThe list of restricted airspaces is not static.
- jetanoia 4y agofyi the aljazeera screenshot doesn’t show the dji article - just a cookie disclosure. Was the ‘ridiculous’ part in the article? Or their saying that the cookie gives “voice to the voiceless”. (Which is funny)
- lom 4y agoIt’s ridiculous that the cookie banner takes that much space. The site is pretty unusable like that.
- coldtea 4y agoThat's the whole idea, that is should be if not a modal, then like a modal, to get a response from the user before proceeding with the site. Nothing ridiculous about it (except the GDPR law itself). Many news websites do it even bigger, or hide the whole screen with a modal white overlay.
- jon-wood 4y agoGDPR does not mandate huge banners for every use of cookies. Those banners are mandated because the website in question wants to share information gathered on you with, in the case of most news websites, hundreds of third parties in order to make a little bit more money from advertisers.
- brewdad 4y agoSo pretty much the same as every other news site on the planet? I guess I'm not fully understanding why the OP is specifically calling out Al Jazeera here.
- magic_hamster 4y agoYou can barely see the title behind the cookie popup and the "live" section, which is one of the worst examples I've seen for these annoying practices. Thankfully Firefox on Android has the "reader mode" available right next to the url.
- mym1990 4y agoWouldn’t the GPS on phone be primarily so that the drone knows where to go in case of emergency? I have also used a drone to follow me while on a bicycle or in a car…it seems like the phone would need GPS there as well. Wondering if GPS on the drone would dramatically affect battery life as well?
- magic_hamster 4y ago> where to go in case of emergency In case of emergency, drones just land where they are, or they could try to go back to the point of origin. Depending on the emergency, the drone might lose connection with the operator, in which case your own location is not very useful. I didn't run into emergencies lately but usually as far as I know the operator sets out to retrieve the drone. > Wondering if GPS on the drone would dramatically affect battery life as well? The vast majority of consumer drones already have GPS (on the device) today. > have also used a drone to follow me while on a bicycle or in a car It's more likely the drone follows you with computer vision although GPS could potentially help if the drone completely loses you. I imagine your phone location will be more helpful in pointing out the general direction than actually getting you in the center of the shot. It's not that accurate, and there are more variables at play like the vertical angle.
- justsomehnguy 4y ago> or they could try to go back to the point of origin. Great idea you if origin was on the boat. I don't know why you all on the fence here, even I, who never used those drones, understand what first and foremost it is for the ability for the drone to return to the current/last known position of operator. Yes, it could be used to send your location directly to CCP's secret service, but you can't have the GPS and eat^W don't have it too.
- mynameisvlad 4y ago> In case of emergency, drones just land where they are, or they could try to go back to the point of origin. Depending on the emergency, the drone might lose connection with the operator, in which case your own location is not very useful. I didn't run into emergencies lately but usually as far as I know the operator sets out to retrieve the drone. The default setting on connection loss is "return to home" with hover or land where you are as options. "Home" is a constantly updated location (sent from the controller to the drone) if you move, which, as another person mentioned, is absolutely critical in some scenarios like being on a boat where your position updates constantly. As another person also mentioned, EU and FCC regulations will also require Remote ID, which broadcasts the drone's and operator's GPS positions. The latter is used if you did something bad and need to be spoken to. Drone usage is somewhere where location is absolutely needed, especially for critical situations where you want your drone to not be lost forever (and so the government can slap you on the hand in person if you did something bad).
- ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago> As a side note, Aljazeera is comically ridiculous: https://imgur.com/a/HnbLy4O https://imgur.com/a/HnbLy4O You were not kidding. Wow.
- i_am_jl 4y agoI haven't been keeping up with the legislation updates, but the FAA's proposal for positional reporting required the drone to report the location of the drone and the pilot. It seems to still be their objective under "Why do we need RemoteID" https://www.faa.gov/uas/getting_started/remote_id/drone_pilots https://www.faa.gov/uas/getting_started/remote_id/drone_pilo... >Remote ID helps the FAA, law enforcement, and other federal agencies find the control station when a drone appears to be flying in an unsafe manner... To be clear, I don't support this implementation of RemoteID proposed by the FAA, and I don't like that the DJI app doesn't allow granular control over permissions. I fully support the Feds' efforts in sanctioning DJI. However, I think it's important that we level reasonable criticisms at DJI for behavior that they're capable of changing.
- magic_hamster 4y agoThis point came up in another comment, and it's definitely reasonable - but I still don't see why DJI would require your location when using products other than drones, which they do. And as I noted before, they are providing an app which has been axed from the official store. Aside from this, as I'm sure you're aware, any information that DJI collect has a nonzero chance of being handed over the the Chinese authorities for any reason whatsoever.
- photochemsyn 4y agoThis is a fairly broad problem across the whole phone app world, isn't it? For example, I bought an iOS app for LAN analysis, but then deleted it when it turned out it wouldn't work unless you gave it access to your physical location (I assume that was for their data marketing side business). Also, any data information collected by a US company also has 'a nonzero chance of being handed over to the American authorities for any reason whatsoever'. The only real solution is data protection laws that can be enforced not just by governmental authorities, but also by individual and class-action lawsuits against companies that violate those laws.
- LeifCarrotson 4y ago
- WrtCdEvrydy 4y agoOn Android, anything that can broadcast a signal (bluetooth/wifi) require location, at least coarse. I'm not saying DJI isn't spying on everything but that's probably the reason. This is hilarious in hindsight because for years, you had to give an app call access so they could monitor if a call was incoming (for pausing a game for example) Edit: It also looks to be a GDPR ban.
- notatoad 4y ago>anything that can broadcast a signal (bluetooth/wifi) it's the opposite - anything that can read a signal that has been broadcast by another deivce requires location permission. which makes sense, because if you can poll for nearby wifi networks or bluetooth beacons you can determine location, even without using the GPS hardware.
- xani_ 4y agoYeah, makes sense from "not confusing users" perspective. "This app only needs wifi network list, it isn't spying on me" would be easy mistake to make
- WrtCdEvrydy 4y agoso Android permissions actually separate coarse and precise but the prompt for location is the same whether you request one or the other.
- xani_ 4y ago>This is an important detail. Your phone location might be helpful when using drones (though GPS should be on the drone, not your phone) I'd imagine it would be important for "come back home" like functionality in case drone loses signal or whatever > but there is absolutely no reason to use it for something like a phone stabilizer, which it absolutely requires and will not let you continue unless you turn it on App making photos or movies using GPS to tag location of the photo is kinda common. Refusing to work without it would be sketchy tho, but "developer is kinda incompetent" is common enough... Not saying it isn't malicious but those are easier explanations. Hell, it could require permissions and not send the data now, just add that tracking in update...
- AdrianB1 4y agoThe "come back home" functionality relies on the GPS on the drone, but the "follow me while filming" needs the phone's. I saw quite a lot of motorcycling vlogs using that feature.
- brokenmachine 4y agoCorrect me if I'm wrong but I thought the follow me is visual. I doubt the phone GPS would be accurate enough to keep you in frame - remember, if you were only using GPS for tracking like that, then you're getting both the error of the phone GPS as well as the error in the drone GPS. I've only really seen it in action on a DJI mini 3 pro. I believe you can do follow me from the controller without a phone involved at all.
- MaxikCZ 4y agodefinetly vision based
- inphovore 4y ago> Aljazeera is comically ridiculous Aljazeera is a model of journalism excellence and integrity! Is this about their cookie warning? They’re obligated to say something. If you don’t take their journalism seriously, you deceive yourself!
- alasdair_ 4y ago>Aljazeera is a model of journalism excellence and integrity! There are really two versions of Aljazeera. The Western-facing one is pretty good (although it sometimes has Russia Today vibes on certain topics). The non-Western version is tabloid nonsense.
- magic_hamster 4y ago> Aljazeera is a model of journalism excellence and integrity!!! I might have been able to respond to this proclamation if I could find their damn website under all the popups and consent modals.
- namlem 4y agoAl Jazeera runs a ton of Qatari propaganda and their Arabic version is especially full of it.
- RosanaAnaDana 4y agoI wonder if its actually for a dgps application. Two GPS signals, two clocks, wireless signals being transmitted. You might be able to do a time differential offset/ correction to get a much higher accuracy relative position (drone and phone are very confident in their relative positions).