4 ms·

Potential for what? Working very hard for even less pay?

by xwdv 4y ago

nicoburns 4y ago
Potential to contribute meaningful improvements to society. It's easy to lose track of in the modern world, but our work is supposed to actually produce value in the real non-monetary sense of the word.
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  I mean, it isn't like the common alternative to the megacorps are all society-improving companies. Trading firms, various financial software companies, gig economy apps, crypto companies, and developer tools companies tend to be the things that recruit me most frequently. Not exactly companies that I feel are providing a lot of benefit to people. Just more efficient ways of being extractive or helping other companies be extractive.
  - indigochill 4y ago
    I wonder what would happen if more software engineers viewed themselves like landscapers/plumbers/electricians. That is, you have a skill, people in your community need it, now you just need to find those people. A friend of mine used to work in the bizdev side of a non-profit, managing donations and tracking groups to thank and follow-up with and so on. Incidentally she started complaining about how bad the user experience of the software she was using was, which got my ears tingling. What if people in her position at other non-profits had the same experience to the extent that I could distribute the cost of developing something this group of users found value in (increased efficiency/productivity) that their organizations would be willing to switch to? I ended up not following through for personal reasons and there are some of the normal "cost of switching" stuff one would have to get past to make this work, but little things like this wouldn't generate hockey-stick revenue but could bring value to the world. If the Thibault can make a decent living making a good free open source chess website or Tarn can make a decent living making the most in-depth fantasy world simulator the world's ever seen, surely there are other modest opportunities out there to be the change we want to see in the world (interestingly both examples here live on donations rather than selling a service/product).
    - UncleMeat 4y ago
      To me, the big difference is that I believe that I can have a greater positive impact by working at one of these megacorps and donating a ton of money to charity. Where I work, I am not generating money for my employer but helping improve an external software ecosystem. This I feel is a small positive thing at a company that might be a net harm to the world. But the pay is way way way way higher than what I could get by building a website for the local food bank. Instead, I can donate five or six figures annually to charitable causes and still come out ahead for my own income.
      - otachack 4y ago
        If you're serious about it I hope you and everyone else that says this commit by picking an issue of society you're passionate about, researching charitable foundations, and contributing a recurring donation that hits the range of money you're willing to part with. You should also keep tuned in to the organization (and those that receive grants from them) on what impact your helping create to build reinforcement.
        UncleMeat 4y ago
        I do. I donate a very large amount of money to an organization that I am deeply involved with that does a lot of good efficiently and effectively. I'm sure that a lot of people just use this as a justification and don't actually follow through but I really am donating an amount of money that would be completely infeasible if I was instead employed by this organization.
    - zztop44 4y ago
      I make a good living building software for nonprofits. It’s true there are plenty of opportunities for better software out there. But, as is often the case, understanding the industry helps. I worked for 10 years at nonprofits in non-developer roles and that experience massively increases my value as a developer to my clients. Enthusiasm and being able to code are great, but making an effort to understand the problem space is even more valuable.
    - 4y ago
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  I think a lot of people who work at a FAANG don't see it that way. Adding one small feature to Facebook or Google is going to have a small impact on billions of lives, while a new SaaS app has a big impact on hundreds. Of course, there is another group whose attitude is more along the lines of, "fuck society, pay me more."
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- parineum 4y ago
  Monetary value is real value. That's literally the entire point of money, a physical and finite object to represent the value people place in the items they purchase. Where you spend your time and money is what you value.
  - tomashubelbauer 4y ago
    I spend a lot of my spare time in VS Code working on stuff that never goes public or makes a single cent. I value that time a lot. I freaking love writing code and prorotyping my random ideas. This is completely outside the realm of the monetary. Similarly, I like taking walks, especially in the fall and winter. No one pays me to do it and I don't have to pay to do it. I am not saying what you said is wrong, but it is certainly incomplete.
    - parineum 4y ago
      Money is compensation for your free time spent doing things you don't want to do. Your free time spent is valued at the opportunity cost of using it not making money. Money isn't the only source of value but it is directly related to both how much time you spend earning it and what you choose to spend it on. Money is just the common language you and I use to express what we personally value.
      - nicoburns 4y ago
        > Money is just the common language you and I use to express what we personally value. It is, but we do not have equal opportunity to express that value. Some people have thousands of times more money than others, and thus the things they value are over-represented by monetary value. Furthermore, due to marginal utility, the things we first spend money on tend to much more valuable to us than the things we spend extra spare money on, the money spent by the rich tend to be less representative of actual value than that spent by the poor. As that is a huge proportion of the total money spent in our current society (see for example https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jan/21/world-26-richest-people-own-as-much-as-poorest-50-per-cent-oxfam-report https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jan/21/world-26-ri...), money ends up not being that great a measure of true value as defined by the things that people want and need.
- nisegami 4y ago
  Source?
- Bakary 4y ago
  Working for a FAANG provides negative value since it increases the power of shady adtech oligopolies
- spfzero 4y ago
  Isn't the entire purpose of money, to represent value?

Potential for what? Working very hard for even less pay?

by xwdv 4y ago

Potential for what? Working very hard for even less pay?

Potential to contribute meaningful improvements to society. It's easy to lose track of in the modern world, but our work is supposed to actually produce value in the real non-monetary sense of the word.

UncleMeat 4y ago
I mean, it isn't like the common alternative to the megacorps are all society-improving companies. Trading firms, various financial software companies, gig economy apps, crypto companies, and developer tools companies tend to be the things that recruit me most frequently. Not exactly companies that I feel are providing a lot of benefit to people. Just more efficient ways of being extractive or helping other companies be extractive.
- indigochill 4y ago
  I wonder what would happen if more software engineers viewed themselves like landscapers/plumbers/electricians. That is, you have a skill, people in your community need it, now you just need to find those people. A friend of mine used to work in the bizdev side of a non-profit, managing donations and tracking groups to thank and follow-up with and so on. Incidentally she started complaining about how bad the user experience of the software she was using was, which got my ears tingling. What if people in her position at other non-profits had the same experience to the extent that I could distribute the cost of developing something this group of users found value in (increased efficiency/productivity) that their organizations would be willing to switch to? I ended up not following through for personal reasons and there are some of the normal "cost of switching" stuff one would have to get past to make this work, but little things like this wouldn't generate hockey-stick revenue but could bring value to the world. If the Thibault can make a decent living making a good free open source chess website or Tarn can make a decent living making the most in-depth fantasy world simulator the world's ever seen, surely there are other modest opportunities out there to be the change we want to see in the world (interestingly both examples here live on donations rather than selling a service/product).
  - UncleMeat 4y ago
    To me, the big difference is that I believe that I can have a greater positive impact by working at one of these megacorps and donating a ton of money to charity. Where I work, I am not generating money for my employer but helping improve an external software ecosystem. This I feel is a small positive thing at a company that might be a net harm to the world. But the pay is way way way way higher than what I could get by building a website for the local food bank. Instead, I can donate five or six figures annually to charitable causes and still come out ahead for my own income.
    - otachack 4y ago
      If you're serious about it I hope you and everyone else that says this commit by picking an issue of society you're passionate about, researching charitable foundations, and contributing a recurring donation that hits the range of money you're willing to part with. You should also keep tuned in to the organization (and those that receive grants from them) on what impact your helping create to build reinforcement.
      - UncleMeat 4y ago
        I do. I donate a very large amount of money to an organization that I am deeply involved with that does a lot of good efficiently and effectively. I'm sure that a lot of people just use this as a justification and don't actually follow through but I really am donating an amount of money that would be completely infeasible if I was instead employed by this organization.
  - zztop44 4y ago
    I make a good living building software for nonprofits. It’s true there are plenty of opportunities for better software out there. But, as is often the case, understanding the industry helps. I worked for 10 years at nonprofits in non-developer roles and that experience massively increases my value as a developer to my clients. Enthusiasm and being able to code are great, but making an effort to understand the problem space is even more valuable.
  - 4y ago
pclmulqdq 4y ago
I think a lot of people who work at a FAANG don't see it that way. Adding one small feature to Facebook or Google is going to have a small impact on billions of lives, while a new SaaS app has a big impact on hundreds. Of course, there is another group whose attitude is more along the lines of, "fuck society, pay me more."
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
parineum 4y ago
Monetary value is real value. That's literally the entire point of money, a physical and finite object to represent the value people place in the items they purchase. Where you spend your time and money is what you value.
- tomashubelbauer 4y ago
  I spend a lot of my spare time in VS Code working on stuff that never goes public or makes a single cent. I value that time a lot. I freaking love writing code and prorotyping my random ideas. This is completely outside the realm of the monetary. Similarly, I like taking walks, especially in the fall and winter. No one pays me to do it and I don't have to pay to do it. I am not saying what you said is wrong, but it is certainly incomplete.
  - parineum 4y ago
    Money is compensation for your free time spent doing things you don't want to do. Your free time spent is valued at the opportunity cost of using it not making money. Money isn't the only source of value but it is directly related to both how much time you spend earning it and what you choose to spend it on. Money is just the common language you and I use to express what we personally value.
    - nicoburns 4y ago
      > Money is just the common language you and I use to express what we personally value. It is, but we do not have equal opportunity to express that value. Some people have thousands of times more money than others, and thus the things they value are over-represented by monetary value. Furthermore, due to marginal utility, the things we first spend money on tend to much more valuable to us than the things we spend extra spare money on, the money spent by the rich tend to be less representative of actual value than that spent by the poor. As that is a huge proportion of the total money spent in our current society (see for example https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jan/21/world-26-richest-people-own-as-much-as-poorest-50-per-cent-oxfam-report https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jan/21/world-26-ri...), money ends up not being that great a measure of true value as defined by the things that people want and need.
nisegami 4y ago
Source?
Bakary 4y ago
Working for a FAANG provides negative value since it increases the power of shady adtech oligopolies
spfzero 4y ago
Isn't the entire purpose of money, to represent value?