4 ms·

it's interesting to hear this from what some folks think of as the 'other side'. i spent a month in india this may training a dozen replacements for US program

it's interesting to hear this from what some folks think of as the 'other side'. i spent a month in india this may training a dozen replacements for US programmers. this was in a company that has had traditionally very low salaries, and is located in Backwater, VA. the spiel from the CTO was that it's being done to provide 'round the clock' coverage, but in practice, not having an american developer on hand who can make decisions can hold up the indian developers. the problems i saw in the dev team across the ocean had nothing to do with their technical skill: they were for the most part technically competent. but they were by and large incapable of self-direction. there were a few exceptions, but for most of the team, once they got into a corner they didn't know how to get out of, they punted to an american developer and asked for help. in my career i've worked with outsourced labor many times. i'd happily trade 5 butts in seats overseas for one guy locally, or even just stateside that understands initiative and can solve their own problems, even if the overseas developers are more 'technically competent'. you can learn technical competence. you can't learn initiative. getting rid of those on the team with the most initiative can be very expensive.

zhyder 18y ago
In a small startup, everyone needs to take a lot of initiative. But in a BDC (big dumb corp), there are several roles where initiative doesn't matter much. In fact it's challenging to both encourage initiative as well as control chaos at a large scale. It's a slow cultural change: Indians are starting to feel more confident, and -subjectively- it looks like technology innovation in India is growing.
- 13ren 18y ago
  Yes; arguably, the goal of initiative in startups is to reduce the need for it. Like programming.
netcan 18y ago
What to do attribute that to? The situation: They're an overseas code shop, strategic desicions are made in the US, etc or the corporate culture of the Indian office or something else.
- sfamiliar 18y ago
  i actually attribute that to the overall culture of india. i was in south india; chennai. the folks that live there have been in a caste system for a long time -- it's integral to their culture. when the caste system was abolished it didn't go away, it just manifested differently. russians can't exist without dictators, indians can't get by without brahmins. at its core, it is a fundamental need for permission. it's not that indian software developers can't make decisions, and can't make good decisions -- they can. they're sharp folks. rather, there's an inherent prohibition within the culture not to jump without being told to. not to strike out on their own and forge new code. it's the injunction to wait for orders from a superior, or else face the consequences. it's a very subtle thing, a cultural trend that's hard to identify the origin of in an individual, just like it's hard to figure out why all americans need to have credit cards. credit cards are just what we do. they wait for someone to tell them to do something. it's even more insidious than that, especially if you're closely partnered: if you tell them to do something, and it's a bad idea, 9 times out of 10 they won't correct you. i, as a fallible human, depend on other people to correct my dumbass mistakes, especially in matters of software development. no one gets everything right. that's what's so fantastic about pair programming -- both people get the best judgment of their partner. if you're paired with an indian, and they perceive that you are in a higher position than they (even if it's on a subconscious level), they'll follow you right into hell, or at least an ill-advised has_many :through relationship, even if they know better. it's the way they're raised, the way they live. i'm not passing judgments on the culture, it just makes for bad programming partners and strange traffic patterns.
  - netcan 18y ago
    I am wary of attributing things to 'overall culture' too much. It can be hard to tell what elements of culture are difficult to alter & which aren't. As a case, I'd point to the fact that outside of India, many do not exhibit that sort of subordinate mentality. I wouldn't bet against being able to create a work environment in India where that was all brought down to a manageable level.
  - rams 18y ago
    Your observation is for the most part correct, but your attributing it to the caste system is typical western stereotype.You say you were in Chennai- Chennai is in the state of Tamil Nadu which has the one of the lowest populations of Brahmins in India - they are less than 1% of the population and the majority of employees in sw companies are not Brahmins. On the other hand if you had said that if this slavish attitude is due to being subjected to outside rule (the Brits and before them the Mughals) it might make more sense. Overall I agree with your observations, especially "they'll follow you right into hell".
systems 18y ago
"incapable of self-direction" ... well, as fellow IT worker from a developing country, I feel sort of offended when I hear such comments. Not that it's untrue, but more because this seems to be a commong perception. I know where it comes from, managers in developing nations seems to suck more than the avg manager in say europe or USA. Managers in developing nations, tend to give unclear direction and then become agressive when their subordinates do not do as they were told, so eventually in many workplace ppl become very passive so not to anger their manager. What aggrevate the issue is that being a developing nation, it means opportunities are fewer, and you tend to get stuck where you are longer than you usually want. The solution is simple, just tell your new co-workers from this developing nations, that they are empowered and allowed to do mistakes without being attacked,thats all!
- jeffool 18y ago
  The line "being a developing nation, it means opportunities are fewer, and you tend to get stuck where you are longer than you usually want," is very interesting me. I can't speak to that notion exactly, but here in the US people very often feel exactly the same about managers in any job so far as becoming "very passive so not to anger their manager." It's often much easier to survive the day-to-day by being passive and doing things inefficiently or wrong than it is to trying to 'do the right thing'. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say most management _everywhere_ prefers employees to do things "their way" over "the right way." And insofar as how to combat it, your simple suggestion pretty much hits the nail on the head. Just make sure on-site management understands that too.
- run4yourlives 18y ago
  Is this not more of an east/west culture difference though? To be fair, North Americans are known for having and expecting a tremendous amount of initiative and opinion. You see this everywhere from talk radio to the boardroom. I don't think a simple instruction to a team can change a learned culture overnight, no matter how well intentioned.
visakhcr 18y ago
"incapability to handle situations themselves.." being in this field for the last 2 years, i completely agree to this. But, as someone else has pointed out, this has to do with the bad management practices followed. Also,kids directly from college expect a spoon feeding kind of situation and are afraid to take decisions of their own.

zhyder 18y ago

In a small startup, everyone needs to take a lot of initiative. But in a BDC (big dumb corp), there are several roles where initiative doesn't matter much. In fact it's challenging to both encourage initiative as well as control chaos at a large scale. It's a slow cultural change: Indians are starting to feel more confident, and -subjectively- it looks like technology innovation in India is growing.

13ren 18y ago
Yes; arguably, the goal of initiative in startups is to reduce the need for it. Like programming.

netcan 18y ago

What to do attribute that to? The situation: They're an overseas code shop, strategic desicions are made in the US, etc or the corporate culture of the Indian office or something else.

sfamiliar 18y ago
i actually attribute that to the overall culture of india. i was in south india; chennai. the folks that live there have been in a caste system for a long time -- it's integral to their culture. when the caste system was abolished it didn't go away, it just manifested differently. russians can't exist without dictators, indians can't get by without brahmins. at its core, it is a fundamental need for permission. it's not that indian software developers can't make decisions, and can't make good decisions -- they can. they're sharp folks. rather, there's an inherent prohibition within the culture not to jump without being told to. not to strike out on their own and forge new code. it's the injunction to wait for orders from a superior, or else face the consequences. it's a very subtle thing, a cultural trend that's hard to identify the origin of in an individual, just like it's hard to figure out why all americans need to have credit cards. credit cards are just what we do. they wait for someone to tell them to do something. it's even more insidious than that, especially if you're closely partnered: if you tell them to do something, and it's a bad idea, 9 times out of 10 they won't correct you. i, as a fallible human, depend on other people to correct my dumbass mistakes, especially in matters of software development. no one gets everything right. that's what's so fantastic about pair programming -- both people get the best judgment of their partner. if you're paired with an indian, and they perceive that you are in a higher position than they (even if it's on a subconscious level), they'll follow you right into hell, or at least an ill-advised has_many :through relationship, even if they know better. it's the way they're raised, the way they live. i'm not passing judgments on the culture, it just makes for bad programming partners and strange traffic patterns.
- netcan 18y ago
  I am wary of attributing things to 'overall culture' too much. It can be hard to tell what elements of culture are difficult to alter & which aren't. As a case, I'd point to the fact that outside of India, many do not exhibit that sort of subordinate mentality. I wouldn't bet against being able to create a work environment in India where that was all brought down to a manageable level.
- rams 18y ago
  Your observation is for the most part correct, but your attributing it to the caste system is typical western stereotype.You say you were in Chennai- Chennai is in the state of Tamil Nadu which has the one of the lowest populations of Brahmins in India - they are less than 1% of the population and the majority of employees in sw companies are not Brahmins. On the other hand if you had said that if this slavish attitude is due to being subjected to outside rule (the Brits and before them the Mughals) it might make more sense. Overall I agree with your observations, especially "they'll follow you right into hell".

systems 18y ago

"incapable of self-direction" ... well, as fellow IT worker from a developing country, I feel sort of offended when I hear such comments. Not that it's untrue, but more because this seems to be a commong perception. I know where it comes from, managers in developing nations seems to suck more than the avg manager in say europe or USA. Managers in developing nations, tend to give unclear direction and then become agressive when their subordinates do not do as they were told, so eventually in many workplace ppl become very passive so not to anger their manager. What aggrevate the issue is that being a developing nation, it means opportunities are fewer, and you tend to get stuck where you are longer than you usually want. The solution is simple, just tell your new co-workers from this developing nations, that they are empowered and allowed to do mistakes without being attacked,thats all!

jeffool 18y ago
The line "being a developing nation, it means opportunities are fewer, and you tend to get stuck where you are longer than you usually want," is very interesting me. I can't speak to that notion exactly, but here in the US people very often feel exactly the same about managers in any job so far as becoming "very passive so not to anger their manager." It's often much easier to survive the day-to-day by being passive and doing things inefficiently or wrong than it is to trying to 'do the right thing'. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say most management _everywhere_ prefers employees to do things "their way" over "the right way." And insofar as how to combat it, your simple suggestion pretty much hits the nail on the head. Just make sure on-site management understands that too.
run4yourlives 18y ago
Is this not more of an east/west culture difference though? To be fair, North Americans are known for having and expecting a tremendous amount of initiative and opinion. You see this everywhere from talk radio to the boardroom. I don't think a simple instruction to a team can change a learned culture overnight, no matter how well intentioned.

visakhcr 18y ago

"incapability to handle situations themselves.." being in this field for the last 2 years, i completely agree to this. But, as someone else has pointed out, this has to do with the bad management practices followed. Also,kids directly from college expect a spoon feeding kind of situation and are afraid to take decisions of their own.