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> Might as well return to having kings and queens huh While I get that that is hyperbolic for effect, I wonder if anyone has done a study of billionaires on th

> Might as well return to having kings and queens huh While I get that that is hyperbolic for effect, I wonder if anyone has done a study of billionaires on the whole and how their "post-becoming-a-billionaire" economic investments and actions have actually benefited society. I'd be most interested in whether 'billionaires' are demonstrably a force for good, and whether there are measurably better alternatives. Elon consistently annoys me these days, but I can't deny that historically he has demonstrated being an exceptionally talented organizer and enabler of change, and I do think his remarks about the results of his participation in the auto industry are between slightly over-exaggerated and spot-on. > that somehow because they are billionaires they know better than the rest of us. Respectfully, I'd propose that it leans more the other way around: (early on) they knew better than average (Musk & Gates were both prolific readers), and thus the fruits of their labors are that they now have tremendous wealth. Of course, it's not a purely linear equation either: (1) the more wealth you pursue, the more mistakes you make, the more you learn, and (2) the more wealth you ultimately accrue, the more the opportunity landscape warps around you because you're the deep pocket now. So, yes, to an extent, although it pains me to admit, on the topic of business billionaires would probably score as well or better than the average person when tested. It becomes reasonable that billionaires adopt this warped (mother/father knows best) perspective, because their world is fundamentally warped when compared to someone without a tremendous audience at their fingertips. I don't think that makes our right or theirs wrong, but it sure is annoying sometimes. It is however a fallacy to believe that just because someone is born more directly into the opportunity to become a billionaire (as Elon certainly was) that it immediately disqualifies them from having earned it. Kardashian kids are a different story.

Tarsul 4y ago
but billionaires optimize for their own wealth growth. Governments should optimize for very different stuff (with a touch of wealth growth, as well).
- raydiatian 4y ago
  > but billionaires optimize for their own wealth growth. Okay, and by so doing make cheaper or more capable products and new jobs and technologies. But I can’t figure out what I said previously that this is in response to unfortunately.
jerojero 4y ago
There will always be someone, in our system, capable of taking the opportunities that they're given and becoming a billionaire. All of these great inventions are nothing but the result of years and years of societal effort; I mean, in the case of Musk he is now one of the richest men thanks to Tesla a company and products he didn't create but bought! Of course, he did a lot of work to get the company to where it is and that's amazing... but I think these people like to think of themselves as market-creators instead of simply market-discoverers if that makes sense. And also, I guess I didn't emphasised this point enough but I don't really think Elon Musk is not, say, more knowledgeable in many areas that the average person. I think that is in fact true, but when you are dealing with politics there is so much more that should be considered. It might not be obvious but who makes a decision is as important as what the decision is. When things go right, we can all be happy, but when things go wrong and things will go wrong a shared decision is much better for society than a decision that was made by a single individual. In reality, what Musk is describing is nothing new, these systems of governance have been explored and discussed at length for century if not thousands of years! And I this illustrates very well how Musk is walking proof that what he's saying is wrong: he doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to governance. He thinks he knows the right answer to questions that people spend their entire lives exploring and he doesn't really engage in any serious way with all the literature and work that's been done in this area. And finally, here's my personal opinion on the matter of governance: I think the average person might be better suited to make a good decision for a very simple reason, an average person will not have the ego that Musk has and is most likely willing to change their minds. Though our modern political structures do not really allow for people to actually change their minds a lot, there are plenty of deliberative-democracy experiments done in Scotland, Ireland, Switzerland, etc. that have shown very promising results in allowing groups of people to actually make well informed decisions on very touchy subjects. There are good structures and proposals out there and I've never really seen Musk even consider these; most likely he doesn't know about them... but then you should ask yourself: if he's so interested, then why doesn't he actually engage in the topic deeply? Ultimately, he's a businessman and he's more worried or at least as worried about making money than he is about making the world a better place. I think he truly believes making money and improving the world are compatible, and I'm not saying it might not be that way, but to me that in itself is a discussion worth having and I'm not sure how dogmatic he is in this view but considering he is a billionaire I'd be almost willing to bet that he has a pretty set view in this regard.

Tarsul 4y ago

but billionaires optimize for their own wealth growth. Governments should optimize for very different stuff (with a touch of wealth growth, as well).

raydiatian 4y ago
> but billionaires optimize for their own wealth growth. Okay, and by so doing make cheaper or more capable products and new jobs and technologies. But I can’t figure out what I said previously that this is in response to unfortunately.

jerojero 4y ago

There will always be someone, in our system, capable of taking the opportunities that they're given and becoming a billionaire. All of these great inventions are nothing but the result of years and years of societal effort; I mean, in the case of Musk he is now one of the richest men thanks to Tesla a company and products he didn't create but bought! Of course, he did a lot of work to get the company to where it is and that's amazing... but I think these people like to think of themselves as market-creators instead of simply market-discoverers if that makes sense. And also, I guess I didn't emphasised this point enough but I don't really think Elon Musk is not, say, more knowledgeable in many areas that the average person. I think that is in fact true, but when you are dealing with politics there is so much more that should be considered. It might not be obvious but who makes a decision is as important as what the decision is. When things go right, we can all be happy, but when things go wrong and things will go wrong a shared decision is much better for society than a decision that was made by a single individual. In reality, what Musk is describing is nothing new, these systems of governance have been explored and discussed at length for century if not thousands of years! And I this illustrates very well how Musk is walking proof that what he's saying is wrong: he doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to governance. He thinks he knows the right answer to questions that people spend their entire lives exploring and he doesn't really engage in any serious way with all the literature and work that's been done in this area. And finally, here's my personal opinion on the matter of governance: I think the average person might be better suited to make a good decision for a very simple reason, an average person will not have the ego that Musk has and is most likely willing to change their minds. Though our modern political structures do not really allow for people to actually change their minds a lot, there are plenty of deliberative-democracy experiments done in Scotland, Ireland, Switzerland, etc. that have shown very promising results in allowing groups of people to actually make well informed decisions on very touchy subjects. There are good structures and proposals out there and I've never really seen Musk even consider these; most likely he doesn't know about them... but then you should ask yourself: if he's so interested, then why doesn't he actually engage in the topic deeply? Ultimately, he's a businessman and he's more worried or at least as worried about making money than he is about making the world a better place. I think he truly believes making money and improving the world are compatible, and I'm not saying it might not be that way, but to me that in itself is a discussion worth having and I'm not sure how dogmatic he is in this view but considering he is a billionaire I'd be almost willing to bet that he has a pretty set view in this regard.