5 ms·

Their site links to their wiki: https://arwiki.wiki/#/en/Arweave https://arwiki.wiki/#/en/Arweave This is how they describe their project: "Arweave is a prot

Their site links to their wiki: https://arwiki.wiki/#/en/Arweave https://arwiki.wiki/#/en/Arweave This is how they describe their project: "Arweave is a protocol that allows you to store data permanently, sustainably, with a single upfront fee." This is economically impossible. That is the description of a pyramid scheme, a startup without a revenue model trying to make up for the fact that they're losing money on every customer by getting lots of customers, a business major who skipped math class, or all of the above. You can't support indefinite retention on fixed cost.

emptysongglass 4y ago
Miners are incentivized to store data via a storage endowment, which pays a principle up-front and accrues interest over time. [1] As cost of storage decreases faster than the interest, storage is secured. Read the yellow paper for a technical deep dive. [2] [1] https://www.arweave.org/technology#blockweaves https://www.arweave.org/technology#blockweaves [2] https://www.arweave.org/yellow-paper.pdf https://www.arweave.org/yellow-paper.pdf
- csande17 4y ago
  Is the interest denominated in a fictional currency whose only value is derived from the fact that you have to buy it to participate in this system? If so, then yes, this system depends on an infinite stream of new customers paying in in order to continue to support the existing ones.
- johntash 4y ago
  When did "Yellow paper" become a thing? Searching makes me think it's specific to crypto companies?
anonymoushn 4y ago
Have you heard of annuities, and do you believe they are economically possible?
- csande17 4y ago
  Have you confused the theoretical concept of "annuity" with the real-world investment product, or do you believe the world will end when you die?
  - anonymoushn 4y ago
    Annuities that pay indefinitely are real financial products with finite prices. If I wanted to be more specific I maybe should have written "perpetuities." Would you really price one dollar per year forever at infinity dollars today? That pricing implies some unusual beliefs about the time value of money.
    - csande17 4y ago
      Okay, if they're real financial products, I'd like to buy one. Which banks will sell me a commitment to pay out one dollar per year forever, including after I die?
      - anonymoushn 4y ago
        I guess when someone uses a comment section as a substitute for a search engine I should not expect them to believe that any financial product that their bank will not sell them exists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_bond#Examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_bond#Examples
        csande17 4y ago
        Arweave should just buy the single remaining bond that that Dutch water board issued in 1648. That'll solve all of their capital problems forever! More to the point, an organization can write a promise on a piece of paper. That does not make it economically possible to keep that promise.
        anonymoushn 4y ago
mgraczyk 4y ago
The part you are missing is that the entire system has to die for your specific data to be lost. That may happen, but it's a different risk than imagining that somebody is storing a single piece of data indefinitely for a single up front fee. The risk and mispricing are socialized across the entire protocol into perpetuity.

emptysongglass 4y ago

Miners are incentivized to store data via a storage endowment, which pays a principle up-front and accrues interest over time. [1] As cost of storage decreases faster than the interest, storage is secured. Read the yellow paper for a technical deep dive. [2] [1] https://www.arweave.org/technology#blockweaves https://www.arweave.org/technology#blockweaves [2] https://www.arweave.org/yellow-paper.pdf https://www.arweave.org/yellow-paper.pdf

csande17 4y ago
Is the interest denominated in a fictional currency whose only value is derived from the fact that you have to buy it to participate in this system? If so, then yes, this system depends on an infinite stream of new customers paying in in order to continue to support the existing ones.
johntash 4y ago
When did "Yellow paper" become a thing? Searching makes me think it's specific to crypto companies?

anonymoushn 4y ago

Have you heard of annuities, and do you believe they are economically possible?

csande17 4y ago
Have you confused the theoretical concept of "annuity" with the real-world investment product, or do you believe the world will end when you die?
- anonymoushn 4y ago
  Annuities that pay indefinitely are real financial products with finite prices. If I wanted to be more specific I maybe should have written "perpetuities." Would you really price one dollar per year forever at infinity dollars today? That pricing implies some unusual beliefs about the time value of money.
  - csande17 4y ago
    Okay, if they're real financial products, I'd like to buy one. Which banks will sell me a commitment to pay out one dollar per year forever, including after I die?
    - anonymoushn 4y ago
      I guess when someone uses a comment section as a substitute for a search engine I should not expect them to believe that any financial product that their bank will not sell them exists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_bond#Examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_bond#Examples
      - csande17 4y ago
        Arweave should just buy the single remaining bond that that Dutch water board issued in 1648. That'll solve all of their capital problems forever! More to the point, an organization can write a promise on a piece of paper. That does not make it economically possible to keep that promise.
        anonymoushn 4y ago

mgraczyk 4y ago

The part you are missing is that the entire system has to die for your specific data to be lost. That may happen, but it's a different risk than imagining that somebody is storing a single piece of data indefinitely for a single up front fee. The risk and mispricing are socialized across the entire protocol into perpetuity.