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I think IPFS fails at the most basic tenet of file storage which is file permanence. It's touted as a decentralized approach but then anyone whose anyone ends u

I think IPFS fails at the most basic tenet of file storage which is file permanence. It's touted as a decentralized approach but then anyone whose anyone ends up paying a centralized service to "pin" their content. Arweave is leagues better: I use it all the time to store articles I've written and very precious media. It couldn't be easier to use with its browser extension. It's also very cheap for true file permanence forever at least until all the storage nodes die out but given replication stands at some absurd multiplier there's little chance of it.

colesantiago 4y ago
- emptysongglass 4y ago
  - Arainach 4y ago
    Their site links to their wiki: https://arwiki.wiki/#/en/Arweave https://arwiki.wiki/#/en/Arweave This is how they describe their project: "Arweave is a protocol that allows you to store data permanently, sustainably, with a single upfront fee." This is economically impossible. That is the description of a pyramid scheme, a startup without a revenue model trying to make up for the fact that they're losing money on every customer by getting lots of customers, a business major who skipped math class, or all of the above. You can't support indefinite retention on fixed cost.
    - emptysongglass 4y ago
      Miners are incentivized to store data via a storage endowment, which pays a principle up-front and accrues interest over time. [1] As cost of storage decreases faster than the interest, storage is secured. Read the yellow paper for a technical deep dive. [2] [1] https://www.arweave.org/technology#blockweaves https://www.arweave.org/technology#blockweaves [2] https://www.arweave.org/yellow-paper.pdf https://www.arweave.org/yellow-paper.pdf
      - csande17 4y ago
        Is the interest denominated in a fictional currency whose only value is derived from the fact that you have to buy it to participate in this system? If so, then yes, this system depends on an infinite stream of new customers paying in in order to continue to support the existing ones.
      - johntash 4y ago
        When did "Yellow paper" become a thing? Searching makes me think it's specific to crypto companies?
    - anonymoushn 4y ago
      Have you heard of annuities, and do you believe they are economically possible?
      - csande17 4y ago
        Have you confused the theoretical concept of "annuity" with the real-world investment product, or do you believe the world will end when you die?
        anonymoushn 4y ago
        Annuities that pay indefinitely are real financial products with finite prices. If I wanted to be more specific I maybe should have written "perpetuities." Would you really price one dollar per year forever at infinity dollars today? That pricing implies some unusual beliefs about the time value of money.
        csande17 4y ago
        Okay, if they're real financial products, I'd like to buy one. Which banks will sell me a commitment to pay out one dollar per year forever, including after I die?
        anonymoushn 4y ago
        I guess when someone uses a comment section as a substitute for a search engine I should not expect them to believe that any financial product that their bank will not sell them exists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_bond#Examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_bond#Examples
        csande17 4y ago
        Arweave should just buy the single remaining bond that that Dutch water board issued in 1648. That'll solve all of their capital problems forever! More to the point, an organization can write a promise on a piece of paper. That does not make it economically possible to keep that promise.
    - mgraczyk 4y ago
      The part you are missing is that the entire system has to die for your specific data to be lost. That may happen, but it's a different risk than imagining that somebody is storing a single piece of data indefinitely for a single up front fee. The risk and mispricing are socialized across the entire protocol into perpetuity.
  - colesantiago 4y ago
    Could you explain why VCs are involved in this token from an ICO? I regard any crypto project, (including bitcoin) a scam especially if it is a VC pre-mined token. There are other better technologies out there that already exists that works that doesn’t need to require the use a blockchain or have a token attached to it.
    - emptysongglass 4y ago
      Your definition is emotionally-fueled and bears little relevance to the actual definition of a scam. I don't know any better technology that exists. The Internet Archive is supported by donations and subject to tides of political sentiment. BitTorrent has a huge problem with data retention and is the only other decentralized popular alternative I know of that can be considered successful.
      - colesantiago 4y ago
        > Your definition is emotionally-fueled and bears little relevance to the actual definition of a scam. This is a shallow dismissal without addressing any of my points of which they are facts [0]. What is certain is that this Arweave project is searching for a problem with blockchain and it doesn’t exist. Cramming blockchain into it doesn’t make it novel or better than what already exists. You’ve said it yourself, BitTorrent & The Internet Archive works well after 25+ years. More importantly it is not surprising that this coin is a premine, I would argue that most of the money from that ICO would have been better allocated to IA (a non profit) than to some ephemeral for profit crypto project, that doesn’t do anything than enrich A16Z, Coinbase and all the other early investors who clearly want to make a quick buck in crypto. I would have expected HN users to be more sceptical of pyramid schemes like this one and it seems that you are either: invested in this token, or are extremely naive enough to think this project would legitimately work at scale (assuming regulations in the crypto space are implemented), or both. [0] https://icodrops.com/arweave/ https://icodrops.com/arweave/
- judge2020 4y ago
  Alternatively, git add article.html git commit -i
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
geysersam 4y ago
Nothing is permanent. IPFS is permanent for your data as long as you run a node in the network hosting it.
betwixthewires 4y ago
IPFS never promised anyone they could just put their stuff out there and have it last forever. That's equivalent to free energy. That's the pitch for Filecoin, but not IPFS. And as far as centralization, you've got a Pareto distribution, no network topology can change that.
- catlifeonmars 4y ago
  > And as far as centralization, you've got a Pareto distribution, no network topology can change that. Explain for the more obtuse among us?
  - cowtools 4y ago
    The majority of seeding/downloading will be done with the (minority) most popular files, while only a minority of seeding/downloading is done for the majority of files. For example, go to TPB and look at the distribution of seeders/leechers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCn8zs912OE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCn8zs912OE
    - catlifeonmars 4y ago
      Ahhhh of course! I wonder if there is a game-theoretically-sound way to smooth out the distribution. At first glance it seems not, because chunks (probably not using the right term for torrent file partitions) need to be addressable/discoverable. However, what if there was a way to couple “popular” chunks with slightly less popular chunks, such that seeding becomes some what more equitable for, say, the top 30-40% of files
- emptysongglass 4y ago
  Then I believe it fails at what I'll call a philosophical pillar of storage, which is that file objects saved or distributed anywhere should be durable. I, personally, have no use for IPFS as every use case I have for file storage and distribution is solved by Arweave. You may have other needs than my own which are better solved by IPFS. If so, I'd love to hear what they are.
- 4y ago
dannyobrien 4y ago
I think if you're really looking for permanence, the best bet is to make lots of copies using diverse storage systems -- including Filecoin, IPFS' own incentivized storage system, ArWeave, etc -- and then use a content-addressable protocol like IPFS as the front end to access them. That way, whatever system survives, you'll still be able to seamlessly locate and refer to your data. (Full disclosure, I work for the Filecoin Foundation for the Decentralized Web, which is certainly part of the wider IPFS Cinematic Universe.)
jeroenhd 4y ago
Just like with normal files, you can pay a third party to keep them around or store them yourself. There are some cryptocurrency based cloud providers that will subsidise cloud storage for their content but like with the rest of the internet, someone will need to pay.

colesantiago 4y ago

emptysongglass 4y ago
- Arainach 4y ago
  Their site links to their wiki: https://arwiki.wiki/#/en/Arweave https://arwiki.wiki/#/en/Arweave This is how they describe their project: "Arweave is a protocol that allows you to store data permanently, sustainably, with a single upfront fee." This is economically impossible. That is the description of a pyramid scheme, a startup without a revenue model trying to make up for the fact that they're losing money on every customer by getting lots of customers, a business major who skipped math class, or all of the above. You can't support indefinite retention on fixed cost.
  - emptysongglass 4y ago
    Miners are incentivized to store data via a storage endowment, which pays a principle up-front and accrues interest over time. [1] As cost of storage decreases faster than the interest, storage is secured. Read the yellow paper for a technical deep dive. [2] [1] https://www.arweave.org/technology#blockweaves https://www.arweave.org/technology#blockweaves [2] https://www.arweave.org/yellow-paper.pdf https://www.arweave.org/yellow-paper.pdf
    - csande17 4y ago
      Is the interest denominated in a fictional currency whose only value is derived from the fact that you have to buy it to participate in this system? If so, then yes, this system depends on an infinite stream of new customers paying in in order to continue to support the existing ones.
    - johntash 4y ago
      When did "Yellow paper" become a thing? Searching makes me think it's specific to crypto companies?
  - anonymoushn 4y ago
    Have you heard of annuities, and do you believe they are economically possible?
    - csande17 4y ago
      Have you confused the theoretical concept of "annuity" with the real-world investment product, or do you believe the world will end when you die?
      - anonymoushn 4y ago
        Annuities that pay indefinitely are real financial products with finite prices. If I wanted to be more specific I maybe should have written "perpetuities." Would you really price one dollar per year forever at infinity dollars today? That pricing implies some unusual beliefs about the time value of money.
        csande17 4y ago
        Okay, if they're real financial products, I'd like to buy one. Which banks will sell me a commitment to pay out one dollar per year forever, including after I die?
        anonymoushn 4y ago
        I guess when someone uses a comment section as a substitute for a search engine I should not expect them to believe that any financial product that their bank will not sell them exists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_bond#Examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_bond#Examples
        csande17 4y ago
        Arweave should just buy the single remaining bond that that Dutch water board issued in 1648. That'll solve all of their capital problems forever! More to the point, an organization can write a promise on a piece of paper. That does not make it economically possible to keep that promise.
  - mgraczyk 4y ago
    The part you are missing is that the entire system has to die for your specific data to be lost. That may happen, but it's a different risk than imagining that somebody is storing a single piece of data indefinitely for a single up front fee. The risk and mispricing are socialized across the entire protocol into perpetuity.
- colesantiago 4y ago
  Could you explain why VCs are involved in this token from an ICO? I regard any crypto project, (including bitcoin) a scam especially if it is a VC pre-mined token. There are other better technologies out there that already exists that works that doesn’t need to require the use a blockchain or have a token attached to it.
  - emptysongglass 4y ago
    Your definition is emotionally-fueled and bears little relevance to the actual definition of a scam. I don't know any better technology that exists. The Internet Archive is supported by donations and subject to tides of political sentiment. BitTorrent has a huge problem with data retention and is the only other decentralized popular alternative I know of that can be considered successful.
    - colesantiago 4y ago
      > Your definition is emotionally-fueled and bears little relevance to the actual definition of a scam. This is a shallow dismissal without addressing any of my points of which they are facts [0]. What is certain is that this Arweave project is searching for a problem with blockchain and it doesn’t exist. Cramming blockchain into it doesn’t make it novel or better than what already exists. You’ve said it yourself, BitTorrent & The Internet Archive works well after 25+ years. More importantly it is not surprising that this coin is a premine, I would argue that most of the money from that ICO would have been better allocated to IA (a non profit) than to some ephemeral for profit crypto project, that doesn’t do anything than enrich A16Z, Coinbase and all the other early investors who clearly want to make a quick buck in crypto. I would have expected HN users to be more sceptical of pyramid schemes like this one and it seems that you are either: invested in this token, or are extremely naive enough to think this project would legitimately work at scale (assuming regulations in the crypto space are implemented), or both. [0] https://icodrops.com/arweave/ https://icodrops.com/arweave/
judge2020 4y ago
Alternatively, git add article.html git commit -i

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

geysersam 4y ago

Nothing is permanent. IPFS is permanent for your data as long as you run a node in the network hosting it.

betwixthewires 4y ago

IPFS never promised anyone they could just put their stuff out there and have it last forever. That's equivalent to free energy. That's the pitch for Filecoin, but not IPFS. And as far as centralization, you've got a Pareto distribution, no network topology can change that.

catlifeonmars 4y ago
> And as far as centralization, you've got a Pareto distribution, no network topology can change that. Explain for the more obtuse among us?
- cowtools 4y ago
  The majority of seeding/downloading will be done with the (minority) most popular files, while only a minority of seeding/downloading is done for the majority of files. For example, go to TPB and look at the distribution of seeders/leechers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCn8zs912OE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCn8zs912OE
  - catlifeonmars 4y ago
    Ahhhh of course! I wonder if there is a game-theoretically-sound way to smooth out the distribution. At first glance it seems not, because chunks (probably not using the right term for torrent file partitions) need to be addressable/discoverable. However, what if there was a way to couple “popular” chunks with slightly less popular chunks, such that seeding becomes some what more equitable for, say, the top 30-40% of files
emptysongglass 4y ago
Then I believe it fails at what I'll call a philosophical pillar of storage, which is that file objects saved or distributed anywhere should be durable. I, personally, have no use for IPFS as every use case I have for file storage and distribution is solved by Arweave. You may have other needs than my own which are better solved by IPFS. If so, I'd love to hear what they are.
4y ago

dannyobrien 4y ago

I think if you're really looking for permanence, the best bet is to make lots of copies using diverse storage systems -- including Filecoin, IPFS' own incentivized storage system, ArWeave, etc -- and then use a content-addressable protocol like IPFS as the front end to access them. That way, whatever system survives, you'll still be able to seamlessly locate and refer to your data. (Full disclosure, I work for the Filecoin Foundation for the Decentralized Web, which is certainly part of the wider IPFS Cinematic Universe.)

jeroenhd 4y ago

Just like with normal files, you can pay a third party to keep them around or store them yourself. There are some cryptocurrency based cloud providers that will subsidise cloud storage for their content but like with the rest of the internet, someone will need to pay.