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> Battery has very similar issues with the rare earth problems Utterly false. The elements needed for Li-Ion batteries are very much "in abundance" on Earth.

> Battery has very similar issues with the rare earth problems Utterly false. The elements needed for Li-Ion batteries are very much "in abundance" on Earth. Elements like lithium can be extracted from seawater around the world in quantities far in excess of what humans will ever use. It's just a little less economical than current sources. Which gets us right back to hydrogen! There's no limit on the amount of hydrogen you can make, but YOU CAN'T MAKE IT ECONOMICALLY. Dismissing eminently practical, extremely efficient battery electric vehicles in favor of an insanely impractical, uneconomical, and thoroughly insane hydrogen economy that is going to vastly increase greenhouse gas emissions in the near future is utterly absurd. > but its also no good for things like big aircraft. Neither is hydrogen! Not a snowball's chance in hell of a hydrogen 737 or A320. The fuel tanks would need to be vastly too large and too heavy. Li-Ion is practical for small, short-hop aircraft TODAY. Short-hop aircraft could gradually reduce the need for larger aircraft (e.g. two short hops instead of one non-stop flight), etc. And there is absolutely potential for battery electric large aircraft in the not-too-distant future. Lower speed, propeller based flight increases efficiency. Flying wing aircraft designs can reduce power consumption by about 1/3rd. And finally, high power battery chemistries like lithium-air[1] actual have the same energy density as gasoline, BUT batteries/motors get ~90% conversion efficiency instead of the measly ~40% conversion efficiency of current turbofans! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium%E2%80%93air_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium%E2%80%93air_battery

_hypx 4y ago
There is no possibility of commercial quantities of lithium being extracted from seawater. It exists at concentrations of 0.1-0.2ppm. It will never happen. You have swallowed myths and fantasies of your own. Also, a fuel cell is a battery. In fact, a lithium-air battery is a fuel cell. If you are bringing up lithium-air batteries, you are unwittingly admitting that hydrogen fuel cells are a viable technology for transportation purposes.
- axiolite 4y ago
  > There is no possibility of commercial quantities of lithium being extracted from seawater. Lithium seawater extraction is much more likely than a green hydrogen economy! In practice, it gets more practical as you couple lithium extraction with other processes, like desalination. In fact, if you manage to get hydrogen production from seawater going, extracting Lithium from the byproducts will be quite economical. > You have swallowed myths and fantasies of your own. I pointed it out only as a response to your equally absurd statement that hydrogen fuel is "fully renewable and in abundance". Clearly, Lithium fits just as well. > you are unwittingly admitting that hydrogen fuel cells are a viable technology for transportation purposes. Certainly not. Fuel cells could certainly become practical for transportation, but HYDROGEN is not, with or without use in a fuel cell, and that's true for the several reasons I've already very clearly outlined.
  - _hypx 4y ago
    Wrong. It's completely infeasible. Coupling with desalination plants will require you desal the equivalent of small seas every year for you to generate enough lithium. It is simply not happening. Hydrogen actually is inexhaustible without deluding yourself into fantasies. > Certainly not. Fuel cells could certainly become practical for transportation, but HYDROGEN is not, with or without use in a fuel cell, and that's true for the several reasons I've already very clearly outlined. That's completely gibberish, and you are utterly contradicting yourself. If you believe "batteries" are future because of efficiency, then you are also admitting that hydrogen fuel cells are just as efficient. Honestly, given the obvious lie that you swallowed (lithium can be extracted from seawater), it's time reassess your "knowledge." You clearly do not understand the problem(s) at all.
    - axiolite 4y ago
      > you are also admitting that hydrogen fuel cells are just as efficient. You've pulled that delusion out of thin air. Fuel cells aren't batteries. Li-Ion gets ~90% conversion efficiency while fuel cells may get ~60%. And with hydrogen that's only if you use it right after you've generated it. As soon as you need to compress and transport it, you're losing a lot more. Batteries charge from the grid, which itself has single-digit percentage losses. Hydrogen fuel cells can't do that, they have tremendous inefficiencies as the Department of Energy quote already stated. Hydrogen fuel cells are far more expensive and vastly less efficient than batteries. There's absolutely no reason to continue to push the former when the latter is immensely practical and available today. But you seem to ignore all information that doesn't bode well for your hydrogen dream, so I expect you'll find yet another reason to disregard this as well. Farewell.

_hypx 4y ago

There is no possibility of commercial quantities of lithium being extracted from seawater. It exists at concentrations of 0.1-0.2ppm. It will never happen. You have swallowed myths and fantasies of your own. Also, a fuel cell is a battery. In fact, a lithium-air battery is a fuel cell. If you are bringing up lithium-air batteries, you are unwittingly admitting that hydrogen fuel cells are a viable technology for transportation purposes.

axiolite 4y ago
> There is no possibility of commercial quantities of lithium being extracted from seawater. Lithium seawater extraction is much more likely than a green hydrogen economy! In practice, it gets more practical as you couple lithium extraction with other processes, like desalination. In fact, if you manage to get hydrogen production from seawater going, extracting Lithium from the byproducts will be quite economical. > You have swallowed myths and fantasies of your own. I pointed it out only as a response to your equally absurd statement that hydrogen fuel is "fully renewable and in abundance". Clearly, Lithium fits just as well. > you are unwittingly admitting that hydrogen fuel cells are a viable technology for transportation purposes. Certainly not. Fuel cells could certainly become practical for transportation, but HYDROGEN is not, with or without use in a fuel cell, and that's true for the several reasons I've already very clearly outlined.
- _hypx 4y ago
  Wrong. It's completely infeasible. Coupling with desalination plants will require you desal the equivalent of small seas every year for you to generate enough lithium. It is simply not happening. Hydrogen actually is inexhaustible without deluding yourself into fantasies. > Certainly not. Fuel cells could certainly become practical for transportation, but HYDROGEN is not, with or without use in a fuel cell, and that's true for the several reasons I've already very clearly outlined. That's completely gibberish, and you are utterly contradicting yourself. If you believe "batteries" are future because of efficiency, then you are also admitting that hydrogen fuel cells are just as efficient. Honestly, given the obvious lie that you swallowed (lithium can be extracted from seawater), it's time reassess your "knowledge." You clearly do not understand the problem(s) at all.
  - axiolite 4y ago
    > you are also admitting that hydrogen fuel cells are just as efficient. You've pulled that delusion out of thin air. Fuel cells aren't batteries. Li-Ion gets ~90% conversion efficiency while fuel cells may get ~60%. And with hydrogen that's only if you use it right after you've generated it. As soon as you need to compress and transport it, you're losing a lot more. Batteries charge from the grid, which itself has single-digit percentage losses. Hydrogen fuel cells can't do that, they have tremendous inefficiencies as the Department of Energy quote already stated. Hydrogen fuel cells are far more expensive and vastly less efficient than batteries. There's absolutely no reason to continue to push the former when the latter is immensely practical and available today. But you seem to ignore all information that doesn't bode well for your hydrogen dream, so I expect you'll find yet another reason to disregard this as well. Farewell.