5 ms·

Something I think it's interesting to contemplate is that there's no reason to think an individual Neanderthal was any less intelligent than an individual human

Something I think it's interesting to contemplate is that there's no reason to think an individual Neanderthal was any less intelligent than an individual human.

ncmncm 4y ago
AFAIU, the only consistent difference in behavior identified between H. n. and H. s. is the former has never been found to have traded with outgroups. That seems consequential.
TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
Another thing to contemplate is that Homo Sapiens may not be the final hominid. There’s no reason why another can’t evolve between now and, say, 100,000 years from now. What will they be like? How big the brains?
- asdff 4y ago
  Why should brains be getting bigger? We aren't selecting for intelligence.
  - lliamander 4y ago
    Given that intelligence tends to be correlated with overall fitness, I think IQ will always be something that will be at least somewhat selected for.
    - scaramanga 4y ago
      Assuming intelligence and brain size correlates? Neanderthals had bigger brains than us.
      - lliamander 4y ago
        I was just responding to this sentence: > We aren't selecting for intelligence. I wasn't really focused on the brain size aspect of the discussion.
    - asdff 4y ago
      Very few of us are selecting our mates based on their prowess in the gym. Usually its social convenience alone and proximity, these aren't traits that drive us into some more efficient species. Plus consider the fecundity of people. Do fit, and intelligent people have more kids? Studies say these people typically have fewer kids on average, that means the resulting next generations offspring is underrepresented by those from intelligent and fit parents and overrepresented by those types of parents that tend to have more kids on average.
- japanuspus 4y ago
  In "Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind," Harari claims that human brain size has decreased since the agricultural revolution (which fits the whole downfall story of course). A bit of googling for backup reveals that things may not be as simple, but it is not clear that current societies are selecting for brain size.
- mellavora 4y ago
  What makes you think it will take 100,000 years? Epigenetics allows a much faster rate of change, especially in structures which are not well preserved in the archeological record. For example, cortical folding patterns. And "how big the brains" is a very good question. See https://blog.frontiersin.org/2021/10/22/when-and-why-did-human-brains-decrease-in-size-3000-years-ago-new-study-may-have-found-clues-within-ants/ https://blog.frontiersin.org/2021/10/22/when-and-why-did-hum... > Studying computational models and patterns of worker ant brain size, structure, and energy use in some ant clades, such as the Oecophylla weaver ant, Atta leafcutter ants, or the common garden ant Formica, showed that group-level cognition and division of labor may select for adaptive brain size variation. This means that within a social group where knowledge is shared or individuals are specialists at certain tasks, brains may adapt to become more efficient, such as decreasing in size. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fevo.2021.742639/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fevo.2021.74263...
  - swader999 4y ago
    There's a good sci-fi movie plot in this.
    - jnwatson 4y ago
      Yes, H. G. Wells’ The Time Machine had two species of humans.
  - feet 4y ago
    AFAIK epigenetics does not cause speciation
    - mellavora 4y ago
      speciation is not well defined. Epigenetics can drive significant morphological and behavioral differences. on the behavioral, there is strong evidence that phobias can be inherited, for example.
      - 4y ago

Something I think it's interesting to contemplate is that there's no reason to think an individual Neanderthal was any less intelligent than an individual human.

ncmncm 4y ago

AFAIU, the only consistent difference in behavior identified between H. n. and H. s. is the former has never been found to have traded with outgroups. That seems consequential.

TedDoesntTalk 4y ago

Another thing to contemplate is that Homo Sapiens may not be the final hominid. There’s no reason why another can’t evolve between now and, say, 100,000 years from now. What will they be like? How big the brains?

asdff 4y ago
Why should brains be getting bigger? We aren't selecting for intelligence.
- lliamander 4y ago
  Given that intelligence tends to be correlated with overall fitness, I think IQ will always be something that will be at least somewhat selected for.
  - scaramanga 4y ago
    Assuming intelligence and brain size correlates? Neanderthals had bigger brains than us.
    - lliamander 4y ago
      I was just responding to this sentence: > We aren't selecting for intelligence. I wasn't really focused on the brain size aspect of the discussion.
  - asdff 4y ago
    Very few of us are selecting our mates based on their prowess in the gym. Usually its social convenience alone and proximity, these aren't traits that drive us into some more efficient species. Plus consider the fecundity of people. Do fit, and intelligent people have more kids? Studies say these people typically have fewer kids on average, that means the resulting next generations offspring is underrepresented by those from intelligent and fit parents and overrepresented by those types of parents that tend to have more kids on average.
japanuspus 4y ago
In "Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind," Harari claims that human brain size has decreased since the agricultural revolution (which fits the whole downfall story of course). A bit of googling for backup reveals that things may not be as simple, but it is not clear that current societies are selecting for brain size.
mellavora 4y ago
What makes you think it will take 100,000 years? Epigenetics allows a much faster rate of change, especially in structures which are not well preserved in the archeological record. For example, cortical folding patterns. And "how big the brains" is a very good question. See https://blog.frontiersin.org/2021/10/22/when-and-why-did-human-brains-decrease-in-size-3000-years-ago-new-study-may-have-found-clues-within-ants/ https://blog.frontiersin.org/2021/10/22/when-and-why-did-hum... > Studying computational models and patterns of worker ant brain size, structure, and energy use in some ant clades, such as the Oecophylla weaver ant, Atta leafcutter ants, or the common garden ant Formica, showed that group-level cognition and division of labor may select for adaptive brain size variation. This means that within a social group where knowledge is shared or individuals are specialists at certain tasks, brains may adapt to become more efficient, such as decreasing in size. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fevo.2021.742639/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fevo.2021.74263...
- swader999 4y ago
  There's a good sci-fi movie plot in this.
  - jnwatson 4y ago
    Yes, H. G. Wells’ The Time Machine had two species of humans.
- feet 4y ago
  AFAIK epigenetics does not cause speciation
  - mellavora 4y ago
    speciation is not well defined. Epigenetics can drive significant morphological and behavioral differences. on the behavioral, there is strong evidence that phobias can be inherited, for example.
    - 4y ago