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As bad as it sounds, it's not against laws of war. For yet more clear example, munition factories are worked by 100% civilians (or close to 100%) and they're st

As bad as it sounds, it's not against laws of war. For yet more clear example, munition factories are worked by 100% civilians (or close to 100%) and they're still legitimate targets. It's enough that civiians weren't deliberately targeted. Also see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grdelica_train_bombing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grdelica_train_bombing, where a train got hit while passing a bridge, which was the real target. 20-55 civilians were dead, but ICTY found no wrongdoing, because the train was just unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and pilot failed to notice it.

pydry 4y ago
If you take an equally liberal interpretation (which they obviously do), there isnt any clear evidence that Russia has broken any laws of war either. Regardless of the law, I think it's pretty sickening to watch Russians military attacks that inadvertently killed civilians. Im no less revulsed by us doing it.
- _kbh_ 4y ago
  > If you take an equally liberal interpretation (which they obviously do), there isnt any clear evidence that Russia has broken any laws of war either. Is raping and torturing civilians against the laws of war?. Cause we have plenty of evidence of that alone, let alone the evidence of Russians directly targeting civilian buildings and evacuation corridors.
  - pydry 4y ago
    >Is raping and torturing civilians against the laws of war? It is, which is why Lyudmila Denisova made up accusations in order to get more weapons for Ukraine. She made the mistake of getting caught doing it and so was fired. A lot of people assume that this was an isolated incident. I dont. There is a lack of independent observers of war crimes (there are satellite photos of dead bodies, but that in itself doesnt prove war crimes were committed) as well as powerful incentives for Ukraine to lie about this on an industrial scale - Ukrainian military supply lines are utterly dependent on western sympathy not drying up.
    - _kbh_ 4y ago
      > There is a lack of independent observers of war crimes (there are satellite photos of dead bodies, but that in itself doesnt prove war crimes were committed) as well as powerful incentives for Ukraine to lie about this on an industrial scale - Ukrainian military supply lines are utterly dependent on western sympathy not drying up. The UN recently released a independent report that says they uncovered evidence that Russian soldiers raped and tortured civilians in Ukraine, including children. > https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2022/09/update-chair-independent-international-commission-inquiry-ukraine-51st-session https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2022/09/update-chair-ind... > The Commission has documented cases in which children have been raped, tortured, and unlawfully confined. Children have also been killed and injured in indiscriminate attacks with explosive weapons. The exposure to repeated explosions, crimes, forced displacement and separation from family members deeply affected their well-being and mental health. > It is So you are in agreement with me Russia commits war crimes, good to know.
      - pydry 4y ago
        >The UN recently released a independent report The UN recently released an "independent" report refusing to assign blame for shelling on Zaporizhia. I would like to trust the UN but when the truth of what happened in Zaporizhia was so very obvious and they made no comment on it after a thorough investigation, they undermined their status as an impartial investigator. Rape is a difficult allegation to prove at the best of times. During the fog of war, with no impartial observers and a paucity of evidence other than witness testimony it becomes nearly impossible. This is pretty much where we are. >Children have also been killed and injured in indiscriminate attacks with explosive weapons. How do you prove that attacks are indiscriminate? For 50 years Israel has been accused of this after killing thousands of children and has successfully batted away the accusation with "well, we were firing at militants, civilians just happened to be there whoops". This (among other things) set a precedent under international law that the standard of evidence required to prove mens rea was almost impossibly high. So far we havent had anything like the Srebrenica massacre (clear cut evidence of militants caught on camera admitting to massacring civilians) we've just got a lot of unreliable witnesses, a lot of accusations flying and a lot of largely western leaning institutions that are as credulous of Ukrainian accusations of warcrimes as they are incredulous of Russian accusations. >So you are in agreement with me Russia commits war crimes I suspect everybody of committing war crimes but I trust nobody to actually investigate and punish them. I realize this puts me in a minority. To most people, this war seems to be a team sport and demonstrate the same level of introspection as a knicks fan or somebody wearing a MAGA hat.
ummonk 4y ago
As I said, the bridge is a legitimate military target, and attacking it (with or without collateral damage) would be legitimate. What isn’t legitimate is breaking the rules of war to attack it (e.g. using an unmarked truck bomb if that was indeed how the attack was carried out).

pydry 4y ago

If you take an equally liberal interpretation (which they obviously do), there isnt any clear evidence that Russia has broken any laws of war either. Regardless of the law, I think it's pretty sickening to watch Russians military attacks that inadvertently killed civilians. Im no less revulsed by us doing it.

_kbh_ 4y ago
> If you take an equally liberal interpretation (which they obviously do), there isnt any clear evidence that Russia has broken any laws of war either. Is raping and torturing civilians against the laws of war?. Cause we have plenty of evidence of that alone, let alone the evidence of Russians directly targeting civilian buildings and evacuation corridors.
- pydry 4y ago
  >Is raping and torturing civilians against the laws of war? It is, which is why Lyudmila Denisova made up accusations in order to get more weapons for Ukraine. She made the mistake of getting caught doing it and so was fired. A lot of people assume that this was an isolated incident. I dont. There is a lack of independent observers of war crimes (there are satellite photos of dead bodies, but that in itself doesnt prove war crimes were committed) as well as powerful incentives for Ukraine to lie about this on an industrial scale - Ukrainian military supply lines are utterly dependent on western sympathy not drying up.
  - _kbh_ 4y ago
    > There is a lack of independent observers of war crimes (there are satellite photos of dead bodies, but that in itself doesnt prove war crimes were committed) as well as powerful incentives for Ukraine to lie about this on an industrial scale - Ukrainian military supply lines are utterly dependent on western sympathy not drying up. The UN recently released a independent report that says they uncovered evidence that Russian soldiers raped and tortured civilians in Ukraine, including children. > https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2022/09/update-chair-independent-international-commission-inquiry-ukraine-51st-session https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2022/09/update-chair-ind... > The Commission has documented cases in which children have been raped, tortured, and unlawfully confined. Children have also been killed and injured in indiscriminate attacks with explosive weapons. The exposure to repeated explosions, crimes, forced displacement and separation from family members deeply affected their well-being and mental health. > It is So you are in agreement with me Russia commits war crimes, good to know.
    - pydry 4y ago
      >The UN recently released a independent report The UN recently released an "independent" report refusing to assign blame for shelling on Zaporizhia. I would like to trust the UN but when the truth of what happened in Zaporizhia was so very obvious and they made no comment on it after a thorough investigation, they undermined their status as an impartial investigator. Rape is a difficult allegation to prove at the best of times. During the fog of war, with no impartial observers and a paucity of evidence other than witness testimony it becomes nearly impossible. This is pretty much where we are. >Children have also been killed and injured in indiscriminate attacks with explosive weapons. How do you prove that attacks are indiscriminate? For 50 years Israel has been accused of this after killing thousands of children and has successfully batted away the accusation with "well, we were firing at militants, civilians just happened to be there whoops". This (among other things) set a precedent under international law that the standard of evidence required to prove mens rea was almost impossibly high. So far we havent had anything like the Srebrenica massacre (clear cut evidence of militants caught on camera admitting to massacring civilians) we've just got a lot of unreliable witnesses, a lot of accusations flying and a lot of largely western leaning institutions that are as credulous of Ukrainian accusations of warcrimes as they are incredulous of Russian accusations. >So you are in agreement with me Russia commits war crimes I suspect everybody of committing war crimes but I trust nobody to actually investigate and punish them. I realize this puts me in a minority. To most people, this war seems to be a team sport and demonstrate the same level of introspection as a knicks fan or somebody wearing a MAGA hat.

ummonk 4y ago

As I said, the bridge is a legitimate military target, and attacking it (with or without collateral damage) would be legitimate. What isn’t legitimate is breaking the rules of war to attack it (e.g. using an unmarked truck bomb if that was indeed how the attack was carried out).