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That's flipping wild to me. I work in the evil defence industry (some sarcasm here). They're so vigilant about bribery that when someone (a general, or someone

That's flipping wild to me. I work in the evil defence industry (some sarcasm here). They're so vigilant about bribery that when someone (a general, or someone important) goes to a contractor presentation it's *expected* that there's a little can they put fifty cents or a few bucks into to pay for their share of the bagels. And if this can doesn't exist? Everyone gets very uncomfortable very quickly - literal jobs are at stake. Other industries are just wild, man.

behringer 4y ago
Yep that was my thought. This guy and his company fell for literal bribery.
- noirbot 4y ago
  I don't think you're wrong, but I do want to push back against this sort of bribery being entirely illegitimate as a signal in business. There's absolutely something to be said for a company partner that cares enough to know how to bribe you and cares enough about your business. Even if the financial part is 100% bribery, there's a difference between "here's a check so you pick us instead of the competition" and spending the effort to work out what your company/decision makers care about and providing that. It's like saying if I plan a date with someone at a concert I know they're into that I'm bribing them into a relationship. In a literal sense, yes, but having someone care enough to cater to you isn't exactly meaningless in terms of deciding who to pursue a longer-term relationship with, personally or in business.
mcculley 4y ago
My first professional job was working as a DoD contractor. Having the anti-bribery training beaten into me did not prepare me well for doing business with the private sector and in other countries. I had to learn that there are completely different rules and expectations.
- GauntletWizard 4y ago
  That's exactly it - It's not illegal to take bribes as an officer of a corporation; it's illegal to defraud others while doing so. If you take a personal bribe to tank your business, that's between you and your business partners - a civil matter unless your business partners are John Q public (Which is why the SEC exists). It is entirely legal to enrich yourself at the expense of a business you wholely own, with the obvious caveat that the courts will pierce the veil if you've committed crimes as that company.
  - mcculley 4y ago
    This is not my understanding at all. The U.S. has laws against non-public entities taking and paying bribes (e.g. Foreign Corrupt Practices Act).
    - GauntletWizard 4y ago
      Paying bribes to government officials, foreign or domestic, is obviously illegal. That's not what I'm talking about, though. Individuals are allowed to accept money for most reasons, and that includes doing things that are against their own or other's interests (so long as those actions aren't in themselves crimes).
      - mcculley 4y ago
        See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_bribery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_bribery
walrus01 4y ago
apparently that DoD employee who went to boeing after deciding the tanker contract didn't get that memo - as I recall she later went to prison.
- tb_technical 4y ago
  The revolving door problem is another unique form of corruption that military contracting has to deal with. Somewhat related, to get my current job I had to sign a bunch of conflict of interest forms because I jumped ships from one side to the other. So some controls exist for the behaviour you brought up! I'm not saying this stuff never happens, either, I'm just remarking that the professional standards and expectations are very different in military contracting versus software.
  - ethbr0 4y ago
    I think one of the reasons it's a bigger issue in future military systems contracts is that they're usually art-of-the-possible. So there's a lot of arbitrary requirement shifting between actual requirements and as-bid program requirements... which invites arbitrary requirements adjustment on behalf of the bidders, but that can be explained away as {insert semi-justified reason here}.

behringer 4y ago

Yep that was my thought. This guy and his company fell for literal bribery.

noirbot 4y ago
I don't think you're wrong, but I do want to push back against this sort of bribery being entirely illegitimate as a signal in business. There's absolutely something to be said for a company partner that cares enough to know how to bribe you and cares enough about your business. Even if the financial part is 100% bribery, there's a difference between "here's a check so you pick us instead of the competition" and spending the effort to work out what your company/decision makers care about and providing that. It's like saying if I plan a date with someone at a concert I know they're into that I'm bribing them into a relationship. In a literal sense, yes, but having someone care enough to cater to you isn't exactly meaningless in terms of deciding who to pursue a longer-term relationship with, personally or in business.

mcculley 4y ago

My first professional job was working as a DoD contractor. Having the anti-bribery training beaten into me did not prepare me well for doing business with the private sector and in other countries. I had to learn that there are completely different rules and expectations.

GauntletWizard 4y ago
That's exactly it - It's not illegal to take bribes as an officer of a corporation; it's illegal to defraud others while doing so. If you take a personal bribe to tank your business, that's between you and your business partners - a civil matter unless your business partners are John Q public (Which is why the SEC exists). It is entirely legal to enrich yourself at the expense of a business you wholely own, with the obvious caveat that the courts will pierce the veil if you've committed crimes as that company.
- mcculley 4y ago
  This is not my understanding at all. The U.S. has laws against non-public entities taking and paying bribes (e.g. Foreign Corrupt Practices Act).
  - GauntletWizard 4y ago
    Paying bribes to government officials, foreign or domestic, is obviously illegal. That's not what I'm talking about, though. Individuals are allowed to accept money for most reasons, and that includes doing things that are against their own or other's interests (so long as those actions aren't in themselves crimes).
    - mcculley 4y ago
      See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_bribery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_bribery

walrus01 4y ago

apparently that DoD employee who went to boeing after deciding the tanker contract didn't get that memo - as I recall she later went to prison.

tb_technical 4y ago
The revolving door problem is another unique form of corruption that military contracting has to deal with. Somewhat related, to get my current job I had to sign a bunch of conflict of interest forms because I jumped ships from one side to the other. So some controls exist for the behaviour you brought up! I'm not saying this stuff never happens, either, I'm just remarking that the professional standards and expectations are very different in military contracting versus software.
- ethbr0 4y ago
  I think one of the reasons it's a bigger issue in future military systems contracts is that they're usually art-of-the-possible. So there's a lot of arbitrary requirement shifting between actual requirements and as-bid program requirements... which invites arbitrary requirements adjustment on behalf of the bidders, but that can be explained away as {insert semi-justified reason here}.