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In some cases it’s probably legitimately “unfair”. Me for example am probably at the more unfair end. I - have high income so pay a large % into taxes - not a

by yibg 4y ago

In some cases it’s probably legitimately “unfair”. Me for example am probably at the more unfair end. I - have high income so pay a large % into taxes - not a citizen so don’t enjoy some of the benefits of military protection - wasn’t raised here so didn’t use any of the earlier year services - likely won’t retire here so won’t use those either Most of my tax dollars goes to fund others in the country. But as a society there is no good way to account for all that. To try to do so the tax calculation will be crazy. So I’ll grumble about the taxes I pay, but end of the day I also don’t really have a better solution.

bernulli 4y ago
But you still benefit even from the mere _existence_ of human beings younger than you are (e.g. service, manufacturing, research, medical, etc.). If you think you don't, think about the fraction of people you will interact with in 20 or 40 years that are younger than you will be, or about the innovations you will be using in 20 or 40 years that were developed by people younger than you. Those human beings have to come from somewhere - why do you insist it my obligation to make you that gift, at exorbitant expense of my time and money?
- astrange 4y ago
  The European countries with these benefits don't have higher birth rates, so it doesn't seem like it's actually producing more younger people. Instead, it's African countries and then ones with more practicing religious people who do.
- yibg 4y ago
  I’m not arguing that I don’t derive value from my taxes. Like you said there are benefits from the next generation, social stability etc. Just that I don’t necessarily derive value proportional to the amount I pay.
RHSeeger 4y ago
Presumably you're not paying taxes to <whereever you will retire to>, but you reap the benefits of the people that did pay taxes there during this time. So it works out in the end. It's the same thing, just at a global level instead of a national level. Admittedly, the rules aren't the same everywhere. Plus, as noted elsewhere, you are getting benefits from the taxes you're paying now, only just on some of it.
- yibg 4y ago
  It’s the proportion of payment vs benefit. We intentionally have a set up where some people pay more into the system than they might get out of it. This isn’t a bug, it’s a feature. But then by the same token some people will be paying an “unfair” amount. Eg if I make a million a year, I might pay 500k in taxes. Someone making 50k a year might pay 10k. I don’t get an extra 450k a year worth of benefit from my taxes. This is intended and is ok. But I think we should also acknowledge that this happens.
jen20 4y ago
> not a citizen so don’t enjoy some of the benefits of military protection Can you explain what you mean by this part?
- yibg 4y ago
  If I was stuck in a war torn country, I don’t get evacuated by the US military.
  - jen20 4y ago
    I think Afghanistan and Ukraine both show that this is not necessarily the case for citizens either.
piaste 4y ago
> likely won’t retire here so won’t use those either I don't know which country you're living in, but surely the money you paid into a pension scheme - be it public or private - doesn't just disappear because you moved to another country? Spain is famously full of UK pensioners receiving and spending their pounds there. Heck, my father worked for a few years in Belgium in his youth, without even being a citizen, and that still entitled him to a (minuscule) Belgian pension later on, in addition to his more substantial one from his subsequent decades of work in a different country.

by yibg 4y ago

bernulli 4y ago

But you still benefit even from the mere _existence_ of human beings younger than you are (e.g. service, manufacturing, research, medical, etc.). If you think you don't, think about the fraction of people you will interact with in 20 or 40 years that are younger than you will be, or about the innovations you will be using in 20 or 40 years that were developed by people younger than you. Those human beings have to come from somewhere - why do you insist it my obligation to make you that gift, at exorbitant expense of my time and money?

astrange 4y ago
The European countries with these benefits don't have higher birth rates, so it doesn't seem like it's actually producing more younger people. Instead, it's African countries and then ones with more practicing religious people who do.
yibg 4y ago
I’m not arguing that I don’t derive value from my taxes. Like you said there are benefits from the next generation, social stability etc. Just that I don’t necessarily derive value proportional to the amount I pay.

RHSeeger 4y ago

Presumably you're not paying taxes to <whereever you will retire to>, but you reap the benefits of the people that did pay taxes there during this time. So it works out in the end. It's the same thing, just at a global level instead of a national level. Admittedly, the rules aren't the same everywhere. Plus, as noted elsewhere, you are getting benefits from the taxes you're paying now, only just on some of it.

yibg 4y ago
It’s the proportion of payment vs benefit. We intentionally have a set up where some people pay more into the system than they might get out of it. This isn’t a bug, it’s a feature. But then by the same token some people will be paying an “unfair” amount. Eg if I make a million a year, I might pay 500k in taxes. Someone making 50k a year might pay 10k. I don’t get an extra 450k a year worth of benefit from my taxes. This is intended and is ok. But I think we should also acknowledge that this happens.

jen20 4y ago

> not a citizen so don’t enjoy some of the benefits of military protection Can you explain what you mean by this part?

yibg 4y ago
If I was stuck in a war torn country, I don’t get evacuated by the US military.
- jen20 4y ago
  I think Afghanistan and Ukraine both show that this is not necessarily the case for citizens either.

piaste 4y ago

> likely won’t retire here so won’t use those either I don't know which country you're living in, but surely the money you paid into a pension scheme - be it public or private - doesn't just disappear because you moved to another country? Spain is famously full of UK pensioners receiving and spending their pounds there. Heck, my father worked for a few years in Belgium in his youth, without even being a citizen, and that still entitled him to a (minuscule) Belgian pension later on, in addition to his more substantial one from his subsequent decades of work in a different country.