6 ms·

So we can finally have docker for Mac that doesn't run egregiously slow?

by lxe 4y ago

hhh 4y ago
You can do this now. I use Multipass to get rapid linux VMs with access to my files. For Kubernetes, I use Rancher Desktop (which can also do some docker magic)
jokethrowaway 4y ago
Lima is not too bad (but I'd use Linux if he support was there)
indymike 4y ago
Our solution was to run Linux native on all dev machines. Docker really is a Linux tool and it works much better under Linux. We were running JetBrains IDEs and doing mostly Go, Python and JS development, so the switch was pretty easy and painless. The switch also dramatically reduced developer time spent solving Mac/Linux incompatibilities in tooling, and let us focus more on our product. Overall we accelerated development by about one day, per developer, per week. I was kind of surprised it was that much time, but looking back, there really are quite a few differences between the GNU userspace and MacOS.
- switchbak 4y ago
  I'm seeing many more folks with Docker centric workflows take the same approach. It's been mostly painless for me, minus the usual audio/Bluetooth snafu. Even those don't happen enough for me to be too concerned.
- avidphantasm 4y ago
  What hardware and distro+kernel version are you using? I am trying to do this on a 12th gen. Intel Dell XPS, and to be honest the hardware support isn’t great. I had to install an upstream 5.19 kernel (rather than 5.15 that ships on Ubuntu 22.04). Sill, at least 2-3 times per week the machine fails to wake from sleep and has to be hard rebooted. Meanwhile my M1 Pro Mac 14” MBP routinely goes 3-4 weeks uptime, with reboots only for OS update. What am I missing?
  - viraptor 4y ago
    Anything in the logs? It just works for me on xps (fedora since 28 till latest). Fwiw, my mac has issues with sleep, so there seems to be some luck involved either way.
    - avidphantasm 4y ago
      My last Intel MBP had sleep issues (2019 i9), but this M1 Pro has been bulletproof. I will look in the logs. I am also planning to “upgrade” to Ubuntu 22.10 when it comes out since it will ship with an Ubuntu-patched 5.19 kernel. Failing that, if I don’t find anything in the logs or don’t have time to find a root cause (more likely), I may have to give up and switch to Windows 11 (sigh).
  - indymike 4y ago
    I just switched from an XPS 15 to an LG Gram. In both cases, I thought I had problems, until I bit the bullet and set up Ubuntu (well, in my case, Kubuntu) to do secure boot. Then everything just worked, except for the fingerprint reader.
- isoprophlex 4y ago
  I swear I'm not trying to be facetious, not trying to stir the same old tired "hurrr year of the linux desktop" shit... I have to ask: you accelerate development by 1 day/week, but do your devs lose any time with the accumulation of tiny annoyance such as sorting out bluetooth/audio/hibernation/battery drain?
  - fsflover 4y ago
    The things you mentioned can be problematic, unless you buy hardware specifically designed for Linux - then they should work flawlessly (they do for me).
  - howinteresting 4y ago
    Plenty of tiny (and big) annoyances on any platform. For me personally Linux has by far the least.
  - kitsunesoba 4y ago
    Yeah I could see maybe going full Linux if everybody were working on custom built towers where maximum compatibility for each component can be assured and sleep won't be a problem, but I wouldn't want to be stuck with supporting a fleet of laptops running Linux. My Tiger Lake ThinkPad which is a couple generations old (no longer cutting edge) and about as standardized/boring as it gets (Intel for most components, no fussy discrete GPU) runs Linux ok but has sleep issues that hamper its usefulness as a laptop.
  - indymike 4y ago
    > I have to ask: you accelerate development by 1 day/week, but do your devs lose any time with the accumulation of tiny annoyance such as sorting out bluetooth/audio/hibernation/battery drain? No. All of the above have been fine - save hibernate. Standard kit is a multidevice logitech bluetooth keyboard and mouse... no issues. A couple of the devs on my team use bluetooth headsets, and that too is no problem. The LG Gram gets about 16-19 hours on a battery, so we've not had drain issues. Audio hasn't been a problem. We did have issues with hibernation when we switched, and solved it by disabling hibernate, and setting the machine to sleep when the lid shuts. I've left my laptop in the bag, sleeping all weekend and had 70% battery on Monday morning. Incidentally, the battery is really not critical... 65W USB3 chargers are cheap so we mostly run plugged in. Your mileage may vary. Incidentally, LG is making a great machine right now. Huge 17" display, metal case, keyboard has a numeric keypad, great battery life, and it weighs 1 oz more than a 13" Macbook Pro. Oh, and lots of ports.
- Maursault 4y ago
  > there really are quite a few differences between the GNU userspace and MacOS. This is why GNU/XNU OS distros should be a thing. I think this would satisfy most that want a fully functional "Linux" on Apple Silicon, being in its entirety OSS plus the ability to gain a fully compliant UNIX specification in stride, at least in practice if not actually registered.
  - webmobdev 4y ago
    GNU Coreutils - https://ports.macports.org/port/coreutils/ https://ports.macports.org/port/coreutils/ - partly helps with this on macOS, but yes, custom distros are much better solutions.
    - Maursault 4y ago
      GNU coreutils are essential on macOS, and Apple should just include it by default. \o/
      - alwillis 4y ago
        Um… GNU’s license is incompatible with Apple; that’s why Bash 3.2 is the current version for macOS.
        gunapologist99 4y ago
        Not incompatible, except with Apple's business model; Apple has been removing GNU software for more than a decade: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3559990 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3559990
        alwillis 4y ago
        I should have been more clear: Apple has and continues to ship GPLv2 software but not GPLv3, since one interpretation of that license is that by including GPLv3 code in macOS, they’d be required to make the source code to at least the entire Darwin (the Unix layer underneath the GUI) operating system available, which is something they probably don’t want to do. Which is why GNU’s core utilities don’t ship in macOS and why the outdated Bash 3.2 (GPLv2) still ships in the latest versions of macOS. It’s also why ZSH, which uses a variation of the MIT license, is now the default shell when Bash was the default for many years.
psygn89 4y ago
VirtioFS made it usable for me. Before that, I used Mutagen.

So we can finally have docker for Mac that doesn't run egregiously slow?

by lxe 4y ago

So we can finally have docker for Mac that doesn't run egregiously slow?

hhh 4y ago

You can do this now. I use Multipass to get rapid linux VMs with access to my files. For Kubernetes, I use Rancher Desktop (which can also do some docker magic)

jokethrowaway 4y ago

Lima is not too bad (but I'd use Linux if he support was there)

indymike 4y ago

Our solution was to run Linux native on all dev machines. Docker really is a Linux tool and it works much better under Linux. We were running JetBrains IDEs and doing mostly Go, Python and JS development, so the switch was pretty easy and painless. The switch also dramatically reduced developer time spent solving Mac/Linux incompatibilities in tooling, and let us focus more on our product. Overall we accelerated development by about one day, per developer, per week. I was kind of surprised it was that much time, but looking back, there really are quite a few differences between the GNU userspace and MacOS.

switchbak 4y ago
I'm seeing many more folks with Docker centric workflows take the same approach. It's been mostly painless for me, minus the usual audio/Bluetooth snafu. Even those don't happen enough for me to be too concerned.
avidphantasm 4y ago
What hardware and distro+kernel version are you using? I am trying to do this on a 12th gen. Intel Dell XPS, and to be honest the hardware support isn’t great. I had to install an upstream 5.19 kernel (rather than 5.15 that ships on Ubuntu 22.04). Sill, at least 2-3 times per week the machine fails to wake from sleep and has to be hard rebooted. Meanwhile my M1 Pro Mac 14” MBP routinely goes 3-4 weeks uptime, with reboots only for OS update. What am I missing?
- viraptor 4y ago
  Anything in the logs? It just works for me on xps (fedora since 28 till latest). Fwiw, my mac has issues with sleep, so there seems to be some luck involved either way.
  - avidphantasm 4y ago
    My last Intel MBP had sleep issues (2019 i9), but this M1 Pro has been bulletproof. I will look in the logs. I am also planning to “upgrade” to Ubuntu 22.10 when it comes out since it will ship with an Ubuntu-patched 5.19 kernel. Failing that, if I don’t find anything in the logs or don’t have time to find a root cause (more likely), I may have to give up and switch to Windows 11 (sigh).
- indymike 4y ago
  I just switched from an XPS 15 to an LG Gram. In both cases, I thought I had problems, until I bit the bullet and set up Ubuntu (well, in my case, Kubuntu) to do secure boot. Then everything just worked, except for the fingerprint reader.
isoprophlex 4y ago
I swear I'm not trying to be facetious, not trying to stir the same old tired "hurrr year of the linux desktop" shit... I have to ask: you accelerate development by 1 day/week, but do your devs lose any time with the accumulation of tiny annoyance such as sorting out bluetooth/audio/hibernation/battery drain?
- fsflover 4y ago
  The things you mentioned can be problematic, unless you buy hardware specifically designed for Linux - then they should work flawlessly (they do for me).
- howinteresting 4y ago
  Plenty of tiny (and big) annoyances on any platform. For me personally Linux has by far the least.
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  Yeah I could see maybe going full Linux if everybody were working on custom built towers where maximum compatibility for each component can be assured and sleep won't be a problem, but I wouldn't want to be stuck with supporting a fleet of laptops running Linux. My Tiger Lake ThinkPad which is a couple generations old (no longer cutting edge) and about as standardized/boring as it gets (Intel for most components, no fussy discrete GPU) runs Linux ok but has sleep issues that hamper its usefulness as a laptop.
- indymike 4y ago
  > I have to ask: you accelerate development by 1 day/week, but do your devs lose any time with the accumulation of tiny annoyance such as sorting out bluetooth/audio/hibernation/battery drain? No. All of the above have been fine - save hibernate. Standard kit is a multidevice logitech bluetooth keyboard and mouse... no issues. A couple of the devs on my team use bluetooth headsets, and that too is no problem. The LG Gram gets about 16-19 hours on a battery, so we've not had drain issues. Audio hasn't been a problem. We did have issues with hibernation when we switched, and solved it by disabling hibernate, and setting the machine to sleep when the lid shuts. I've left my laptop in the bag, sleeping all weekend and had 70% battery on Monday morning. Incidentally, the battery is really not critical... 65W USB3 chargers are cheap so we mostly run plugged in. Your mileage may vary. Incidentally, LG is making a great machine right now. Huge 17" display, metal case, keyboard has a numeric keypad, great battery life, and it weighs 1 oz more than a 13" Macbook Pro. Oh, and lots of ports.
Maursault 4y ago
> there really are quite a few differences between the GNU userspace and MacOS. This is why GNU/XNU OS distros should be a thing. I think this would satisfy most that want a fully functional "Linux" on Apple Silicon, being in its entirety OSS plus the ability to gain a fully compliant UNIX specification in stride, at least in practice if not actually registered.
- webmobdev 4y ago
  GNU Coreutils - https://ports.macports.org/port/coreutils/ https://ports.macports.org/port/coreutils/ - partly helps with this on macOS, but yes, custom distros are much better solutions.
  - Maursault 4y ago
    GNU coreutils are essential on macOS, and Apple should just include it by default. \o/
    - alwillis 4y ago
      Um… GNU’s license is incompatible with Apple; that’s why Bash 3.2 is the current version for macOS.
      - gunapologist99 4y ago
        Not incompatible, except with Apple's business model; Apple has been removing GNU software for more than a decade: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3559990 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3559990
        alwillis 4y ago
        I should have been more clear: Apple has and continues to ship GPLv2 software but not GPLv3, since one interpretation of that license is that by including GPLv3 code in macOS, they’d be required to make the source code to at least the entire Darwin (the Unix layer underneath the GUI) operating system available, which is something they probably don’t want to do. Which is why GNU’s core utilities don’t ship in macOS and why the outdated Bash 3.2 (GPLv2) still ships in the latest versions of macOS. It’s also why ZSH, which uses a variation of the MIT license, is now the default shell when Bash was the default for many years.

psygn89 4y ago

VirtioFS made it usable for me. Before that, I used Mutagen.