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I like the idea of reducing plastic waste, but I can’t help but think that this is another virtue signaling. In the last 3 years in the Bay Area the amount of t

I like the idea of reducing plastic waste, but I can’t help but think that this is another virtue signaling. In the last 3 years in the Bay Area the amount of trash along the freeways is astonishing. Same goes for any big metro area, except maybe San Diego, but I have not spent much time there. Then this garbage is gonna end in the ocean. Bottle and can deposit is fairly hard to get. There aren’t any recycling facility in a convenience zone around, so the stores are required to do it. Not single one in the area does and the state does not enforce it and now is sitting on a lot of unclaimed money. The state pushes hard for lithium batteries, you can buy shit load of it and other e-waste from amazon, but the state does not do anything to force amazon take it back and recycle when used, etc. In the office we have three bins, and the janitor at the end just comes and puts trash and recycling in one bag(except compostable), turns out the waste management company treats recycling and trash the same. This indicates that economics of recycling is not, yet they focus on plastic bags for groceries.

themitigating 4y ago
Why do you think it's virtue signaling? You never explained why. You also make the claim that in the last three years the amount of liter has increased , do you have evidence of this?
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  I disagree that it is "virtual signaling" (such an overused term) but I suspect the person you are responding to believe that the state California needs to force Amazon to accept lithium battery returns, the state needs to provide recycling centers that will refund can and bottle deposits and the state needs to clean up the freeways? My problem with the argument is that it appears if a state is not doing everything then it is clearly "virtual signaling".
  - YeBanKo 4y ago
    The state cannot do everything, this is exactly right. So they have to focus on things with a high impact or long term measures. Limited capacity requires prioritization. If good PR is a priority, then it is virtue signaling.
    - themitigating 4y ago
      Define virtue signaling
- YeBanKo 4y ago
  > Why do you think it’s virtue signaling. First, because I don’t think that it will affect recycling or environment in a meaningful way. Legislature can produce only a limited number of outcomes, so if this was passed, means something else wasn’t. Legislature maybe have unknown number of unintended consequences and there is also a burden of enforcing it. > …, do you have evidence of this? I don’t, beyond personal observation. How would track the amount of garbage along a highway? I am specifically talking about 101, 280, 880, 580 in the bay area. Every time I am driving I am thinking about putting a camera facing the shoulder and then trying analyze it with cv. I also don’t have evidence I can present that it then ends up in the ocean. My observation is that after windy and rainy days, especially in November, you can see a lot more household trash on the beach along the Pacific coast. I assume the Bay may have the same issue, but I don’t go there often to notice.
  - zackees 4y ago
  - themitigating 4y ago
    You're misusing the term "virtue signaling:, an already ridiculously dumb term. If they are making changes they believe will help the environment it's not virtue signaling, even if you don't think it will. More so that you don't offer any evidence to the contrary. I wonder about right wing people and "virtue signaling". Is it that they don't care about the environment or animals,or maybe are just generally selfish, that it's difficult for them to imagine that others might just want to do the right thing without benefitting from it? As for your inconsistent personal observations that solely relies on memory- they have no value
    - YeBanKo 4y ago
      If my personal observation has no value, than neither does your opinion and your comment.
      - themitigating 4y ago
        Your anecdotal evidence is different from my opinion on it. If I review a movie and say it's bad would you say "if the movie is bad then your opinion is bad?" You shouldn't make accusations without evidence and you shouldn't use anecdotal evidence as the sole backing for a claim.
bombcar 4y ago
Lithium batteries at least you should be able to dump at any Home Depot. You can around here. It'd be amusing if California law was such that they DIDN'T offer that in CA.
- YeBanKo 4y ago
  You can drop it at HD. It is one of the few places as my go to. But amazon is the place where you can buy all kinds of cheap crappy lithium batteries that may not even have proper marking in it. Something that may end up not recycled properly, yet amazon is not gonna be taxed for the consequences.
sn0w_crash 4y ago
All of this is virtue signaling. It always has been, it always will be. The question is do you fall for it, and turn a blind eye to the many other horrible ways the bureaucratic industrial complex harms the environment.
baskethead 4y ago
I have a feeling most highway trash is coming from the garbage trucks themselves, or open trucks. I've NEVER seen anyone litter from a car, ever, in decades in California. However, I have seen a lot of garbage fly away from garbage trucks on the freeway, or those dumpster trucks or from pickup trucks filled with garbage. They have no containment whatsoever.
haswell 4y ago
The fact that these other things are still happening indicates more progress is needed, but doesn’t change the benefit of eliminating plastic bags or mean doing so is virtue signaling. If you were to accept this logic to its extreme, nothing short of an all encompassing policy that addresses all issues simultaneously would count as not virtue signaling. Progress is almost always incremental. That doesn’t mean it’s not progress.
minusf 4y ago
> turns out the waste management company treats recycling and trash the same this is quite common in many countries but perhaps not always a bad sign. there are modern waste disposal (burning) plants with great filtering where the temperature of the burning needs to be stable and only mixed garbage provides that. https://youtu.be/ag_grOFzadw?t=249 https://youtu.be/ag_grOFzadw?t=249
blitzar 4y ago
Your grounds for opposition sound like you are trying to indicate your values to the group.

themitigating 4y ago

Why do you think it's virtue signaling? You never explained why. You also make the claim that in the last three years the amount of liter has increased , do you have evidence of this?

JKCalhoun 4y ago
I disagree that it is "virtual signaling" (such an overused term) but I suspect the person you are responding to believe that the state California needs to force Amazon to accept lithium battery returns, the state needs to provide recycling centers that will refund can and bottle deposits and the state needs to clean up the freeways? My problem with the argument is that it appears if a state is not doing everything then it is clearly "virtual signaling".
- YeBanKo 4y ago
  The state cannot do everything, this is exactly right. So they have to focus on things with a high impact or long term measures. Limited capacity requires prioritization. If good PR is a priority, then it is virtue signaling.
  - themitigating 4y ago
    Define virtue signaling
YeBanKo 4y ago
> Why do you think it’s virtue signaling. First, because I don’t think that it will affect recycling or environment in a meaningful way. Legislature can produce only a limited number of outcomes, so if this was passed, means something else wasn’t. Legislature maybe have unknown number of unintended consequences and there is also a burden of enforcing it. > …, do you have evidence of this? I don’t, beyond personal observation. How would track the amount of garbage along a highway? I am specifically talking about 101, 280, 880, 580 in the bay area. Every time I am driving I am thinking about putting a camera facing the shoulder and then trying analyze it with cv. I also don’t have evidence I can present that it then ends up in the ocean. My observation is that after windy and rainy days, especially in November, you can see a lot more household trash on the beach along the Pacific coast. I assume the Bay may have the same issue, but I don’t go there often to notice.
- zackees 4y ago
- themitigating 4y ago
  You're misusing the term "virtue signaling:, an already ridiculously dumb term. If they are making changes they believe will help the environment it's not virtue signaling, even if you don't think it will. More so that you don't offer any evidence to the contrary. I wonder about right wing people and "virtue signaling". Is it that they don't care about the environment or animals,or maybe are just generally selfish, that it's difficult for them to imagine that others might just want to do the right thing without benefitting from it? As for your inconsistent personal observations that solely relies on memory- they have no value
  - YeBanKo 4y ago
    If my personal observation has no value, than neither does your opinion and your comment.
    - themitigating 4y ago
      Your anecdotal evidence is different from my opinion on it. If I review a movie and say it's bad would you say "if the movie is bad then your opinion is bad?" You shouldn't make accusations without evidence and you shouldn't use anecdotal evidence as the sole backing for a claim.

bombcar 4y ago

Lithium batteries at least you should be able to dump at any Home Depot. You can around here. It'd be amusing if California law was such that they DIDN'T offer that in CA.

YeBanKo 4y ago
You can drop it at HD. It is one of the few places as my go to. But amazon is the place where you can buy all kinds of cheap crappy lithium batteries that may not even have proper marking in it. Something that may end up not recycled properly, yet amazon is not gonna be taxed for the consequences.

sn0w_crash 4y ago

All of this is virtue signaling. It always has been, it always will be. The question is do you fall for it, and turn a blind eye to the many other horrible ways the bureaucratic industrial complex harms the environment.

baskethead 4y ago

I have a feeling most highway trash is coming from the garbage trucks themselves, or open trucks. I've NEVER seen anyone litter from a car, ever, in decades in California. However, I have seen a lot of garbage fly away from garbage trucks on the freeway, or those dumpster trucks or from pickup trucks filled with garbage. They have no containment whatsoever.

haswell 4y ago

The fact that these other things are still happening indicates more progress is needed, but doesn’t change the benefit of eliminating plastic bags or mean doing so is virtue signaling. If you were to accept this logic to its extreme, nothing short of an all encompassing policy that addresses all issues simultaneously would count as not virtue signaling. Progress is almost always incremental. That doesn’t mean it’s not progress.

minusf 4y ago

> turns out the waste management company treats recycling and trash the same this is quite common in many countries but perhaps not always a bad sign. there are modern waste disposal (burning) plants with great filtering where the temperature of the burning needs to be stable and only mixed garbage provides that. https://youtu.be/ag_grOFzadw?t=249 https://youtu.be/ag_grOFzadw?t=249

blitzar 4y ago

Your grounds for opposition sound like you are trying to indicate your values to the group.