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And why would you deny the same right to mentally ill? It's just as much suffering as any other chronic illness sometimes more. Either you believe in bodily au

And why would you deny the same right to mentally ill? It's just as much suffering as any other chronic illness sometimes more. Either you believe in bodily autonomy or you don't.

tsimionescu 4y ago
It's obvious you have no idea what you're talking about, so ideally you should really stop talking. Try speaking to someone who has experienced suicidal ideation and how afraid they are they may actually do it in a moment of insanity.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  > afraid they are they may actually do it in a moment of insanity. That's certainly not a universal experience. There are rational and valid reasons a mentally ill person may want to die and other people should not deny them that right. It's inhumane torture and a complete disrespect of their personhood to disregard deny their capacity to so reason and force them to live in suffering.
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    There are, but they are vastly outnumbered by the non-rational ones. There are extremely common drugs used to treat depression (SSRIs) that cause suicidal tendencies in people younger than 24, for example. Depression itself causes suicidal ideation, as do many psychosis. If you actually want to help someone suffering from this, you must check that their desire to die persists for a long enough time, and is not simply a psychotic episode that they would regret later. This is often easily distinguishable, as people who start having thoughts of suicide are often terrified of actually following through just moments later. It is also extremely well established fact that the vast majority of people whose suicide attempts are thwarted are thankful for it, and that cutting access to the easiest suicide methods drastically reduces the total rate of suicides: most people who commit suicide don't want to die, they are just having an irrational episode.
    - guerrilla 4y ago
      > There are, but they are vastly outnumbered by the non-rational ones. Good luck backing that one up. > This is often easily distinguishable, as people who start having thoughts of suicide are often terrified of actually following through just moments later. I this is a terrible criterion because even if you've made the right decision death is still incredibly scary and so is dying (which can go wrong, especially when efficient methods are witheld.) Your overall point sounds good superficially but I don't see why you think its within your rights to be a gatekeeper for me though. It's none of your business, __at all__. You can want to help all you want, but forcing your "help" on others isn't within your rights.
      - tsimionescu 4y ago
        Again, speak to some actual people or organizations who are or work with the mentally ill. > Good luck backing that one up. Here[0] is a study that followed 98 people for 35 years after an original attempt at suicide, and found that 13% of them eventually died by suicide, some up to 15 years later. I would say that clearly shows that the vast majority of people who attempted suicide (87%) did not intend to die. > Your overall point sounds good superficially but I don't see why you think its within your rights to be a gatekeeper for me though. It's none of your business, __at all__. You can want to help all you want, but forcing your "help" on others isn't within your rights. You're again missing a fundamental aspect of mental illness: that many people who have a mental witness need an advocate to help keep them safe from themselves. Not just for suicide, but also self harm, extreme risk-taking behavior, substance abuse and others. You don't just let late stage Alzheimer's patients wander outside: even though freedom of movement is a fundamental human right, they don't know where and why they are going and can easily harm themselves in the process. [0] https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.161.3.562 https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.1...
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bastawhiz 4y ago
There is a fundamental difference between a disease that causes pain that leads a rational, terminally ill person to choose a dignified death and a disease which induces pain and suicidal ideation, but which is treatable. Mental health treatment is available and mental illness is almost never terminal.

And why would you deny the same right to mentally ill? It's just as much suffering as any other chronic illness sometimes more. Either you believe in bodily autonomy or you don't.

tsimionescu 4y ago

It's obvious you have no idea what you're talking about, so ideally you should really stop talking. Try speaking to someone who has experienced suicidal ideation and how afraid they are they may actually do it in a moment of insanity.

guerrilla 4y ago
> afraid they are they may actually do it in a moment of insanity. That's certainly not a universal experience. There are rational and valid reasons a mentally ill person may want to die and other people should not deny them that right. It's inhumane torture and a complete disrespect of their personhood to disregard deny their capacity to so reason and force them to live in suffering.
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  There are, but they are vastly outnumbered by the non-rational ones. There are extremely common drugs used to treat depression (SSRIs) that cause suicidal tendencies in people younger than 24, for example. Depression itself causes suicidal ideation, as do many psychosis. If you actually want to help someone suffering from this, you must check that their desire to die persists for a long enough time, and is not simply a psychotic episode that they would regret later. This is often easily distinguishable, as people who start having thoughts of suicide are often terrified of actually following through just moments later. It is also extremely well established fact that the vast majority of people whose suicide attempts are thwarted are thankful for it, and that cutting access to the easiest suicide methods drastically reduces the total rate of suicides: most people who commit suicide don't want to die, they are just having an irrational episode.
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    > There are, but they are vastly outnumbered by the non-rational ones. Good luck backing that one up. > This is often easily distinguishable, as people who start having thoughts of suicide are often terrified of actually following through just moments later. I this is a terrible criterion because even if you've made the right decision death is still incredibly scary and so is dying (which can go wrong, especially when efficient methods are witheld.) Your overall point sounds good superficially but I don't see why you think its within your rights to be a gatekeeper for me though. It's none of your business, __at all__. You can want to help all you want, but forcing your "help" on others isn't within your rights.
    - tsimionescu 4y ago
      Again, speak to some actual people or organizations who are or work with the mentally ill. > Good luck backing that one up. Here[0] is a study that followed 98 people for 35 years after an original attempt at suicide, and found that 13% of them eventually died by suicide, some up to 15 years later. I would say that clearly shows that the vast majority of people who attempted suicide (87%) did not intend to die. > Your overall point sounds good superficially but I don't see why you think its within your rights to be a gatekeeper for me though. It's none of your business, __at all__. You can want to help all you want, but forcing your "help" on others isn't within your rights. You're again missing a fundamental aspect of mental illness: that many people who have a mental witness need an advocate to help keep them safe from themselves. Not just for suicide, but also self harm, extreme risk-taking behavior, substance abuse and others. You don't just let late stage Alzheimer's patients wander outside: even though freedom of movement is a fundamental human right, they don't know where and why they are going and can easily harm themselves in the process. [0] https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.161.3.562 https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.1...
- deleted 4y ago
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bastawhiz 4y ago

There is a fundamental difference between a disease that causes pain that leads a rational, terminally ill person to choose a dignified death and a disease which induces pain and suicidal ideation, but which is treatable. Mental health treatment is available and mental illness is almost never terminal.