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Some people believe in the right to suicide. I don’t think that’s appalling at all. What’s appalling is how America prolongs the suffering of terminally ill or

Some people believe in the right to suicide. I don’t think that’s appalling at all. What’s appalling is how America prolongs the suffering of terminally ill or those with horrific chronic diseases who want out. Agreed on the teen part though.

spir 4y ago
I believe in the right to suicide, and I also think transaction costs matter. What if we had 25-cent suicide booths a la Futurama on every street corner? Sometimes people are going through hard times, and it needs to be easier to seek help and connect with other humans who care than it is to off yourself.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  If you believe in a right to suicide, don't you believe in a right to making it as low cost and accessible as possible? If you have to afford it and you have to get past a gatekeeper it doesn't seem much of a right.
  - stale2002 4y ago
    You are being obtuse. The point here is that someone shouldn't be able to decide, in the course of 5 seconds, to engage in a permanent decision like this. The reason being, that people make mistakes in the course of 5 seconds, that they regret. So, instead of that, we should be pretty sure before allowing people to make such permanent decision. Such as, for example, by having a doctor talk to the person. This is why the OP mentioned the TV show Futurama. Because in the comedy TV show, people could decide in 5 seconds to do that. And the reason why it was in a comedy TV show, is because that is bad, and absurd, and that's why it is funny.
    - chrisseaton 4y ago
      > The point here is that someone shouldn't be able to decide, in the course of 5 seconds, to engage in a permanent decision like this. Is it a right or not? > we should be pretty sure In what sense is it a right if someone else has to agree to it?
      - stale2002 4y ago
        So, you see zero problem with someone spending 5 seconds to think about a decision and then taking a permanent decision like that? Really? Or are you just hyper focusing on an irrelevant dictionary definition of the single word "right", that nobody else was using? That is why I said you were being obtuse. You focusing on a single word is missing the point, and I don't know why you would focus on the word like that.
        chrisseaton 4y ago
        > Really? Yeah really. What right should I have to tell them to do something or not do something with their own body and life?
        stale2002 4y ago
        Well then you basically do not care about suicidal people. Because, if you had ever spoken to anyone who has felt suicidal, you will see that most of them admit that they have had couple second lapses in judgement and are extremely glad that they did not have a 5 second suicide button that they could press. So, me, being someone who actually cares about these people, and who has spoken to them, know that most people who are suicidal do not want to be given this option. You would know this if you had ever spoken to someone in your life, ever, who has had depressive or suicidal thoughts.
        chrisseaton 4y ago
        > You would know this if you had ever spoken to someone in your life, ever, who has had depressive or suicidal thoughts. Actually I'm a trustee of a registered charity that provides support to people with a wide range of serious welfare and mental health issues and have dealt with them in practice multiple times, providing a great deal of support from my own personal time to people struggling. I'm sorry that you made an incorrect assumption. I'm afraid that I find it's pretty typical among people who think they should have a right to control others.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    No, because suicide is also an extremely dangerous option to other groups of people - some mental illnesses cause suicidal ideation, and people who suffer from them are often terrified in their moments of clarity of the possibility that they may actually do it in their moments of "insanity". The vast majority of people who attempt suicide actually regret it afterwards, and have no deep desire to die. Making it hard to actually kill yourself is an extremely important safety net for these people, who outnumber the terminally ill who actually wish to die by a large margin. Not to mention, people can be compelled to attempt suicide by social pressure, either in bullying or by family members who view them as a burden. Having to go through a neutral third party who can help make sure you actually deeply desire this step is critical to protect you from others.
lolinder 4y ago
Some people believe in the right to doctor-assisted suicide. I don't know anyone who advocates that suicide drugs should be available over the counter to anyone who's feeling suicidal today.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  > I don't know anyone who advocates that suicide drugs should be available over the counter to anyone who's feeling suicidal today. Seems like that would fall under basic bodily autonomy. Why should a doctor gatekeep something so important...
  - chalst 4y ago
    Because teenagers with suicidal thoughts are most often lacking the sense of perspective about their situation they would gain with maturity. This is a case where rigidly-based reasoning about rights fails the common-sense test.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      The full set of human rights is for legally consenting adults. Minors have only a subset of those rights.
- chmod775 4y ago
  > I don't know anyone who advocates that suicide drugs should be available over the counter to anyone who's feeling suicidal today. Chances are on HN you'll find people sufficiently detached from reality to advocate for this.
- x86x87 4y ago
  Why is it legal to buy a gun but illegal to decide to end your own life? The hypocrisy is through the roof. How are we free if we are forced to live? Btw: we should not encourage suicide. I think we need to help people that are in a position where they are considering and also there are things that are deeply f'ed with our society to begin with that slowly push people to this (ie helping suicidal people is a drop in the bucket if we don't fix fundamental issues)
bastawhiz 4y ago
I strongly believe in the right to assisted suicide for the terminally ill, but I also believe that it shouldn't be as easy as placing an order on Amazon. Suicide is overwhelmingly an issue with folks who are mentally unwell, not physiologically. There's no excuse for what Amazon is doing here.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  And why would you deny the same right to mentally ill? It's just as much suffering as any other chronic illness sometimes more. Either you believe in bodily autonomy or you don't.
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    It's obvious you have no idea what you're talking about, so ideally you should really stop talking. Try speaking to someone who has experienced suicidal ideation and how afraid they are they may actually do it in a moment of insanity.
    - guerrilla 4y ago
      > afraid they are they may actually do it in a moment of insanity. That's certainly not a universal experience. There are rational and valid reasons a mentally ill person may want to die and other people should not deny them that right. It's inhumane torture and a complete disrespect of their personhood to disregard deny their capacity to so reason and force them to live in suffering.
      - tsimionescu 4y ago
        There are, but they are vastly outnumbered by the non-rational ones. There are extremely common drugs used to treat depression (SSRIs) that cause suicidal tendencies in people younger than 24, for example. Depression itself causes suicidal ideation, as do many psychosis. If you actually want to help someone suffering from this, you must check that their desire to die persists for a long enough time, and is not simply a psychotic episode that they would regret later. This is often easily distinguishable, as people who start having thoughts of suicide are often terrified of actually following through just moments later. It is also extremely well established fact that the vast majority of people whose suicide attempts are thwarted are thankful for it, and that cutting access to the easiest suicide methods drastically reduces the total rate of suicides: most people who commit suicide don't want to die, they are just having an irrational episode.
archon1410 4y ago
My first thought was that maybe the parents should blame themselves instead of figurative rope-sellers for being a failure of a parent who let their kids go to the point where they attempt suicide, while claiming they were not even "aware of it". But that's probably too jaded for here.
- Lightbody 4y ago
  Yeah that’s super jaded. Seriously consider stepping back and thinking about how much grief the parents are going through. I have a young child who has voiced suicidal thoughts and and it’s so fucking hard. The pandemic has been really rough on a lot of kids. Thank god we are we’re finally able to get professional help (after almost a year of waiting for an available therapist). You don’t know shit about the circumstances of these families, and jumping to the conclusion that the parents are at fault and not at least considering that a $1T company could lift a finger is kinda messed up. Sorry for the angry tone but I’m seeing a few folks make comments like yours and it’s infuriating. This isn’t some joke topic and the Silicon Valley contrarian attitude really is frustrating to see on this thread.
  - catiopatio 4y ago
    This isn’t a contrarian attitude, it’s a “parent your own children instead of insisting corporations parent all of us” attitude. I feel for the parents’ grief. I also understand how difficult parenting a troubled teenager must be. I also categorically reject the idea that Amazon is culpable, and I think that these particular parents, in their grief, are merely attempting to externalize their feelings of guilt. They want to rage at something or someone other than themselves.
    - x86x87 4y ago
      Why not both? Parent your children + require sensible safeguards
    - Lightbody 4y ago
      Asking Amazon to not bundle these product and instead put up a suicide hotline suggestion instead is not “insisting corporations parent all of us”. It’s insisting on basic decency. And I *AM* parenting my children when I insist on this. The only thing I’m thinking about is if my kid goes to a dark place again and starts searching the internet. But please: why don’t you tell me how to be better parent to prevent this?
P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
That doesn't make it ok to sell suicide kits to teenagers. Stop defending actions because it's somewhat tangentially related to something else you think should be allowed.

spir 4y ago

I believe in the right to suicide, and I also think transaction costs matter. What if we had 25-cent suicide booths a la Futurama on every street corner? Sometimes people are going through hard times, and it needs to be easier to seek help and connect with other humans who care than it is to off yourself.

chrisseaton 4y ago
If you believe in a right to suicide, don't you believe in a right to making it as low cost and accessible as possible? If you have to afford it and you have to get past a gatekeeper it doesn't seem much of a right.
- stale2002 4y ago
  You are being obtuse. The point here is that someone shouldn't be able to decide, in the course of 5 seconds, to engage in a permanent decision like this. The reason being, that people make mistakes in the course of 5 seconds, that they regret. So, instead of that, we should be pretty sure before allowing people to make such permanent decision. Such as, for example, by having a doctor talk to the person. This is why the OP mentioned the TV show Futurama. Because in the comedy TV show, people could decide in 5 seconds to do that. And the reason why it was in a comedy TV show, is because that is bad, and absurd, and that's why it is funny.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    > The point here is that someone shouldn't be able to decide, in the course of 5 seconds, to engage in a permanent decision like this. Is it a right or not? > we should be pretty sure In what sense is it a right if someone else has to agree to it?
    - stale2002 4y ago
      So, you see zero problem with someone spending 5 seconds to think about a decision and then taking a permanent decision like that? Really? Or are you just hyper focusing on an irrelevant dictionary definition of the single word "right", that nobody else was using? That is why I said you were being obtuse. You focusing on a single word is missing the point, and I don't know why you would focus on the word like that.
      - chrisseaton 4y ago
        > Really? Yeah really. What right should I have to tell them to do something or not do something with their own body and life?
        stale2002 4y ago
        Well then you basically do not care about suicidal people. Because, if you had ever spoken to anyone who has felt suicidal, you will see that most of them admit that they have had couple second lapses in judgement and are extremely glad that they did not have a 5 second suicide button that they could press. So, me, being someone who actually cares about these people, and who has spoken to them, know that most people who are suicidal do not want to be given this option. You would know this if you had ever spoken to someone in your life, ever, who has had depressive or suicidal thoughts.
        chrisseaton 4y ago
        > You would know this if you had ever spoken to someone in your life, ever, who has had depressive or suicidal thoughts. Actually I'm a trustee of a registered charity that provides support to people with a wide range of serious welfare and mental health issues and have dealt with them in practice multiple times, providing a great deal of support from my own personal time to people struggling. I'm sorry that you made an incorrect assumption. I'm afraid that I find it's pretty typical among people who think they should have a right to control others.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  No, because suicide is also an extremely dangerous option to other groups of people - some mental illnesses cause suicidal ideation, and people who suffer from them are often terrified in their moments of clarity of the possibility that they may actually do it in their moments of "insanity". The vast majority of people who attempt suicide actually regret it afterwards, and have no deep desire to die. Making it hard to actually kill yourself is an extremely important safety net for these people, who outnumber the terminally ill who actually wish to die by a large margin. Not to mention, people can be compelled to attempt suicide by social pressure, either in bullying or by family members who view them as a burden. Having to go through a neutral third party who can help make sure you actually deeply desire this step is critical to protect you from others.

lolinder 4y ago

Some people believe in the right to doctor-assisted suicide. I don't know anyone who advocates that suicide drugs should be available over the counter to anyone who's feeling suicidal today.

guerrilla 4y ago
> I don't know anyone who advocates that suicide drugs should be available over the counter to anyone who's feeling suicidal today. Seems like that would fall under basic bodily autonomy. Why should a doctor gatekeep something so important...
- chalst 4y ago
  Because teenagers with suicidal thoughts are most often lacking the sense of perspective about their situation they would gain with maturity. This is a case where rigidly-based reasoning about rights fails the common-sense test.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    The full set of human rights is for legally consenting adults. Minors have only a subset of those rights.
chmod775 4y ago
> I don't know anyone who advocates that suicide drugs should be available over the counter to anyone who's feeling suicidal today. Chances are on HN you'll find people sufficiently detached from reality to advocate for this.
x86x87 4y ago
Why is it legal to buy a gun but illegal to decide to end your own life? The hypocrisy is through the roof. How are we free if we are forced to live? Btw: we should not encourage suicide. I think we need to help people that are in a position where they are considering and also there are things that are deeply f'ed with our society to begin with that slowly push people to this (ie helping suicidal people is a drop in the bucket if we don't fix fundamental issues)

bastawhiz 4y ago

I strongly believe in the right to assisted suicide for the terminally ill, but I also believe that it shouldn't be as easy as placing an order on Amazon. Suicide is overwhelmingly an issue with folks who are mentally unwell, not physiologically. There's no excuse for what Amazon is doing here.

guerrilla 4y ago
And why would you deny the same right to mentally ill? It's just as much suffering as any other chronic illness sometimes more. Either you believe in bodily autonomy or you don't.
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  It's obvious you have no idea what you're talking about, so ideally you should really stop talking. Try speaking to someone who has experienced suicidal ideation and how afraid they are they may actually do it in a moment of insanity.
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    > afraid they are they may actually do it in a moment of insanity. That's certainly not a universal experience. There are rational and valid reasons a mentally ill person may want to die and other people should not deny them that right. It's inhumane torture and a complete disrespect of their personhood to disregard deny their capacity to so reason and force them to live in suffering.
    - tsimionescu 4y ago
      There are, but they are vastly outnumbered by the non-rational ones. There are extremely common drugs used to treat depression (SSRIs) that cause suicidal tendencies in people younger than 24, for example. Depression itself causes suicidal ideation, as do many psychosis. If you actually want to help someone suffering from this, you must check that their desire to die persists for a long enough time, and is not simply a psychotic episode that they would regret later. This is often easily distinguishable, as people who start having thoughts of suicide are often terrified of actually following through just moments later. It is also extremely well established fact that the vast majority of people whose suicide attempts are thwarted are thankful for it, and that cutting access to the easiest suicide methods drastically reduces the total rate of suicides: most people who commit suicide don't want to die, they are just having an irrational episode.

archon1410 4y ago

My first thought was that maybe the parents should blame themselves instead of figurative rope-sellers for being a failure of a parent who let their kids go to the point where they attempt suicide, while claiming they were not even "aware of it". But that's probably too jaded for here.

Lightbody 4y ago
Yeah that’s super jaded. Seriously consider stepping back and thinking about how much grief the parents are going through. I have a young child who has voiced suicidal thoughts and and it’s so fucking hard. The pandemic has been really rough on a lot of kids. Thank god we are we’re finally able to get professional help (after almost a year of waiting for an available therapist). You don’t know shit about the circumstances of these families, and jumping to the conclusion that the parents are at fault and not at least considering that a $1T company could lift a finger is kinda messed up. Sorry for the angry tone but I’m seeing a few folks make comments like yours and it’s infuriating. This isn’t some joke topic and the Silicon Valley contrarian attitude really is frustrating to see on this thread.
- catiopatio 4y ago
  This isn’t a contrarian attitude, it’s a “parent your own children instead of insisting corporations parent all of us” attitude. I feel for the parents’ grief. I also understand how difficult parenting a troubled teenager must be. I also categorically reject the idea that Amazon is culpable, and I think that these particular parents, in their grief, are merely attempting to externalize their feelings of guilt. They want to rage at something or someone other than themselves.
  - x86x87 4y ago
    Why not both? Parent your children + require sensible safeguards
  - Lightbody 4y ago
    Asking Amazon to not bundle these product and instead put up a suicide hotline suggestion instead is not “insisting corporations parent all of us”. It’s insisting on basic decency. And I *AM* parenting my children when I insist on this. The only thing I’m thinking about is if my kid goes to a dark place again and starts searching the internet. But please: why don’t you tell me how to be better parent to prevent this?

P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago

That doesn't make it ok to sell suicide kits to teenagers. Stop defending actions because it's somewhat tangentially related to something else you think should be allowed.