6 ms·

That’s the thing with fraud. The goal is never to stop it all, but to keep it at some local minimum. The rest is just the cost of doing business.

roywiggins 4y ago
In this case it just has to be harder to pull off than jumping the turnstile.
- kingkawn 4y ago
  Which is unfathomably easy, so much so that it doesn’t even require physically jumping
  - Tijdreiziger 4y ago
    It wouldn’t be easy with fare gates, but the cost is probably too high to justify for NYC (imagine having to rip out all the existing turnstiles and replace them).
    - crazygringo 4y ago
      To be fair there are already gates everywhere there's an entrance that doesn't have a manned booth. There are only turnstiles that can be jumped at the entrances that are manned by an attendant 24/7.
    - kingkawn 4y ago
      I think it’s less cost than needing to process high passenger volume in old stations
  - Akronymus 4y ago
    Which is part of the reason why vienna doesn't have turnstiles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq-X25pH1XQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq-X25pH1XQ
- crazygringo 4y ago
  Cops were actually catching and fining people a ton for this between about 2-4 months ago. First time I'd ever seen them proactively enforce it. Haven't seen it in a few weeks though. It's expensive to be posting two cops near every turnstile entrance.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    > It's expensive to be posting two cops near every turnstile entrance. On that note: the city actually spends more on the NYPD for fare evasion than they could possibly recover from it[1]. I'd rather the city just give every teenager a free card instead, and spend the savings on a tipline for complaints about NYPD officers on their phones[2]. [1]: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2019/11/14/mta-will-spend-249m-on-new-cops-to-save-200m-on-fare-evasion/ https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2019/11/14/mta-will-spend-249m-o... [2]: https://www.thecity.nyc/2022/7/11/23204575/new-york-answered-mayors-call-to-catch-phone-cops https://www.thecity.nyc/2022/7/11/23204575/new-york-answered...
    - matt123456789 4y ago
      The harder and likely more relevant task is that of quantifying the amount of fare evasion preempted by policing, similar to many other law enforcement actions.
      - woodruffw 4y ago
        Anecdotally, I've never seen the police chase a farebeater. I've never even seen someone be particularly dissuaded by police presence at the gates; in my old neighborhood I would see people hop the gate with the police right there. It simply isn't worth their time, and all parties understand that.
        crazygringo 4y ago
        That's what I'm saying changed 4 months ago here in NYC. They were chasing and catching literally everyone. Well, the cops at the turnstile would radio the cops on the platform if they ran. The people caught were really pissed about it too. Lotta loud arguing every time I went into the subway since they were catching people constantly. Granted I live in a neighborhood where people jump the turnstiles a lot.
VWWHFSfQ 4y ago
Capitol One has been touting "With Capitol One, you're never responsible for fraudulent charges on your account!" Yeah, no shit. Fraud is YOUR problem. Not mine.
- TimTheTinker 4y ago
  This is an interesting legal question, but in this case answer is entirely dependent on the terms of service agreement that you signed when you obtained the card, along with any applicable regulations.
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    The thing Capital One is bragging about is enforced by law. Every American credit card has the same protection. Similar scenario: chicken in the grocery store that advertises itself as "antibiotic and hormone free". No chicken in the grocery store has added antibiotics or hormones; it's illegal.
    - fragmede 4y ago
      https://xkcd.com/641/ https://xkcd.com/641/
    - lxgr 4y ago
      Federal law allows passing liability for up to $50 to the cardholder.
      - ceejayoz 4y ago
        Not quite; https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/1643 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/1643 A-F have to all apply. Visa, Mastercard, Amex, and Discover all additionally enforce $0 credit card liability on the banks that use their networks. You'll only see the $50 thing on debit cards, and every bank I've used has waived that to give credit card-style protection.
        4y ago

roywiggins 4y ago

In this case it just has to be harder to pull off than jumping the turnstile.

kingkawn 4y ago
Which is unfathomably easy, so much so that it doesn’t even require physically jumping
- Tijdreiziger 4y ago
  It wouldn’t be easy with fare gates, but the cost is probably too high to justify for NYC (imagine having to rip out all the existing turnstiles and replace them).
  - crazygringo 4y ago
    To be fair there are already gates everywhere there's an entrance that doesn't have a manned booth. There are only turnstiles that can be jumped at the entrances that are manned by an attendant 24/7.
  - kingkawn 4y ago
    I think it’s less cost than needing to process high passenger volume in old stations
- Akronymus 4y ago
  Which is part of the reason why vienna doesn't have turnstiles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq-X25pH1XQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq-X25pH1XQ
crazygringo 4y ago
Cops were actually catching and fining people a ton for this between about 2-4 months ago. First time I'd ever seen them proactively enforce it. Haven't seen it in a few weeks though. It's expensive to be posting two cops near every turnstile entrance.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  > It's expensive to be posting two cops near every turnstile entrance. On that note: the city actually spends more on the NYPD for fare evasion than they could possibly recover from it[1]. I'd rather the city just give every teenager a free card instead, and spend the savings on a tipline for complaints about NYPD officers on their phones[2]. [1]: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2019/11/14/mta-will-spend-249m-on-new-cops-to-save-200m-on-fare-evasion/ https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2019/11/14/mta-will-spend-249m-o... [2]: https://www.thecity.nyc/2022/7/11/23204575/new-york-answered-mayors-call-to-catch-phone-cops https://www.thecity.nyc/2022/7/11/23204575/new-york-answered...
  - matt123456789 4y ago
    The harder and likely more relevant task is that of quantifying the amount of fare evasion preempted by policing, similar to many other law enforcement actions.
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      Anecdotally, I've never seen the police chase a farebeater. I've never even seen someone be particularly dissuaded by police presence at the gates; in my old neighborhood I would see people hop the gate with the police right there. It simply isn't worth their time, and all parties understand that.
      - crazygringo 4y ago
        That's what I'm saying changed 4 months ago here in NYC. They were chasing and catching literally everyone. Well, the cops at the turnstile would radio the cops on the platform if they ran. The people caught were really pissed about it too. Lotta loud arguing every time I went into the subway since they were catching people constantly. Granted I live in a neighborhood where people jump the turnstiles a lot.

VWWHFSfQ 4y ago

Capitol One has been touting "With Capitol One, you're never responsible for fraudulent charges on your account!" Yeah, no shit. Fraud is YOUR problem. Not mine.

TimTheTinker 4y ago
This is an interesting legal question, but in this case answer is entirely dependent on the terms of service agreement that you signed when you obtained the card, along with any applicable regulations.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  The thing Capital One is bragging about is enforced by law. Every American credit card has the same protection. Similar scenario: chicken in the grocery store that advertises itself as "antibiotic and hormone free". No chicken in the grocery store has added antibiotics or hormones; it's illegal.
  - fragmede 4y ago
    https://xkcd.com/641/ https://xkcd.com/641/
  - lxgr 4y ago
    Federal law allows passing liability for up to $50 to the cardholder.
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      Not quite; https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/1643 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/1643 A-F have to all apply. Visa, Mastercard, Amex, and Discover all additionally enforce $0 credit card liability on the banks that use their networks. You'll only see the $50 thing on debit cards, and every bank I've used has waived that to give credit card-style protection.
      - 4y ago