4 ms·

Between this, and them shuttering any official EU accounts or presence after the award, I really foubt they will pay the award, and it seems unlikely they were

Between this, and them shuttering any official EU accounts or presence after the award, I really foubt they will pay the award, and it seems unlikely they were contributing or collecting any taxes related to the employment.

jupp0r 4y ago
IANAL, but the person terminated would probably have some pretty good arguments in a US based lawsuit. More money to be awarded by the court in case he wins too.
- CameronNemo 4y ago
  Way more expensive legal fees though, and a much slower "justice" system. In the Netherlands court, the legal fees were sub 1k, and the decision happened less than 2 months from the filing.
  - gnicholas 4y ago
    How can the legal fees be less than a thousand dollars? It would take at least a few hours to research the law and write a brief, let alone prepare for court and make an appearance. Even if a lawyer was paid only $150/hr, it seems hard to come in under $1k. Regardless, it would certainly be much more expensive in the US, where decent lawyers are hundreds or thousands an hour.
    - jlawer 4y ago
      I assume he did it without a lawyer. I know in Australia we have forums where you can represent yourself in these low level workers rights cases. He spent time himself researching the law and going through the process, but he can't claim for that
    - ivan_gammel 4y ago
      I would call any legal system making it practically impossible to sue without a lawyer a failure. But even if using professional help is recommended, it doesn’t have to be expensive - you can use legal insurance to cover majority of the costs.
      - gnicholas 4y ago
        How does legal insurance work? The only time I ever heard of it I was pitched what sounded like an MLM. Is there another kind out there?
        alexriddle 4y ago
        In the UK legal insurance is often bundled with home insurance for a small fee (~£8 a month for me). This covers the cost of legal advice across a broad range of categories (employment, housing, consumer protection, personal injury are all usually included) and if a case is likely to succeed (more than 50% prospects of success as judged by the law firm) then they will cover all the costs up to a certain limit which is usually enough for most cases (say £50,000 or so). It's not perfect but reasonably strong regulation of consumer insurance means that if you have problems with e.g the decision made, there is an independent organisation who can review the case for you. You usually have to use a law firm which has an arrangement with the insurer, or one who will accept the lower rates the insurers have negotiated but again if you feel there is an issue with the quality on offer you can make a complaint. I presume something similar is offered in NL.
    - stingraycharles 4y ago
      We have “juridisch loket” over here in .NL which is advices people on legal matters for free. Especially common for housing and/or employment issues, but they deal with anything. It’s not unlikely the employee from the article used their services, even if just initially.
    - michalu 4y ago
      Europe doesn't have case law, the law is written and codified so once you finish law school you have all the laws memorized. The judge can only apply specific paragraph of the law not create new ones. 1k is cheap yes, 5k would in such case be more reasonable to expect if you're in a similar situation if you go with a lawyer (depending on firm and location i.e. lawyer in big city vs provincial town)
      - anticensor 4y ago
        > Europe doesn't have case law Case law is a thing in civil law systems too, it is just not binding on the judges except special occasions.
    - doetoe 4y ago
      In the article it says that the (compensation awarded for) legal fees were 585 euros
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  I can't imagine what they would sue for in a US court. Most states are at will and refusal to comply with company policy and procedures is a one-way ticket out
  - michaelmrose 4y ago
    Instead of re-litigating the employment issues couldn't they just sue to enforce the fact that they didn't pay their bill in the other suite? Also unless they have zero assets in the EU wouldn't other member states potentially be an option to seize said assets?
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      I don't think that the trial decision in a foreign court is binding in US courts. The US court will not enforce them because they are completely different jurisdictions
      - jedberg 4y ago
        I'm not 100% sure but I think one of our treaties with the Netherlands is that we enforce each other's laws/court judgements.
        junofan 4y ago
        Think the US famously never signs treaties like that. Our courts decide.
        s1artibartfast 4y ago
        Looks like it comes down to a each state to determine how and if they will honor decisions for other Nations. Here is some information I could find[1]. Obviously, there is a lot of variability here, and I don't there are blanket agreements to enforce judgements. It is hard to imagine the Netherlands forcing payment for an abortion damages judgement from a Texas court . https://www.gibsondunn.com/wp-content/uploads/documents/publications/Edelman-Jura-Enforcement-of-Foreign-Judgments-US.pdf https://www.gibsondunn.com/wp-content/uploads/documents/publ...
daniel-cussen 4y ago
stefan_ 4y ago
This is an employment action. There is a good chance it pierces the corporate veil. So yes, they can avoid paying, if their directors never want to enter the EU again.
- gnicholas 4y ago
  Why would this pierce the veil? That’s a pretty high bar, and I don’t remember learning that employment actions are much more likely to satisfy the requirements.
  - fsckboy 4y ago
    payment of wages owed to employees frequently pierces the corporate veil.
    - gnicholas 4y ago
      Sure, if the employee being paid is an owner of the company. But in this case, I can't imagine how it would be relevant. Perhaps you know more about Dutch law and piercing the corporate veil, but my training as a US lawyer has me scratching my head on this one.
PebblesRox 4y ago
I thought they closed up their Dutch branch after the firing, not after the court case: "Less than a week after the plaintiff was fired, the Rijswijk branch of Chetu Inc. was deregistered from the Chamber of Commerce and shut down on 2 September, records show." Seems fishy, but could an innocent explanation be that he was their only Dutch employee?

jupp0r 4y ago

IANAL, but the person terminated would probably have some pretty good arguments in a US based lawsuit. More money to be awarded by the court in case he wins too.

CameronNemo 4y ago
Way more expensive legal fees though, and a much slower "justice" system. In the Netherlands court, the legal fees were sub 1k, and the decision happened less than 2 months from the filing.
- gnicholas 4y ago
  How can the legal fees be less than a thousand dollars? It would take at least a few hours to research the law and write a brief, let alone prepare for court and make an appearance. Even if a lawyer was paid only $150/hr, it seems hard to come in under $1k. Regardless, it would certainly be much more expensive in the US, where decent lawyers are hundreds or thousands an hour.
  - jlawer 4y ago
    I assume he did it without a lawyer. I know in Australia we have forums where you can represent yourself in these low level workers rights cases. He spent time himself researching the law and going through the process, but he can't claim for that
  - ivan_gammel 4y ago
    I would call any legal system making it practically impossible to sue without a lawyer a failure. But even if using professional help is recommended, it doesn’t have to be expensive - you can use legal insurance to cover majority of the costs.
    - gnicholas 4y ago
      How does legal insurance work? The only time I ever heard of it I was pitched what sounded like an MLM. Is there another kind out there?
      - alexriddle 4y ago
        In the UK legal insurance is often bundled with home insurance for a small fee (~£8 a month for me). This covers the cost of legal advice across a broad range of categories (employment, housing, consumer protection, personal injury are all usually included) and if a case is likely to succeed (more than 50% prospects of success as judged by the law firm) then they will cover all the costs up to a certain limit which is usually enough for most cases (say £50,000 or so). It's not perfect but reasonably strong regulation of consumer insurance means that if you have problems with e.g the decision made, there is an independent organisation who can review the case for you. You usually have to use a law firm which has an arrangement with the insurer, or one who will accept the lower rates the insurers have negotiated but again if you feel there is an issue with the quality on offer you can make a complaint. I presume something similar is offered in NL.
  - stingraycharles 4y ago
    We have “juridisch loket” over here in .NL which is advices people on legal matters for free. Especially common for housing and/or employment issues, but they deal with anything. It’s not unlikely the employee from the article used their services, even if just initially.
  - michalu 4y ago
    Europe doesn't have case law, the law is written and codified so once you finish law school you have all the laws memorized. The judge can only apply specific paragraph of the law not create new ones. 1k is cheap yes, 5k would in such case be more reasonable to expect if you're in a similar situation if you go with a lawyer (depending on firm and location i.e. lawyer in big city vs provincial town)
    - anticensor 4y ago
      > Europe doesn't have case law Case law is a thing in civil law systems too, it is just not binding on the judges except special occasions.
  - doetoe 4y ago
    In the article it says that the (compensation awarded for) legal fees were 585 euros
s1artibartfast 4y ago
I can't imagine what they would sue for in a US court. Most states are at will and refusal to comply with company policy and procedures is a one-way ticket out
- michaelmrose 4y ago
  Instead of re-litigating the employment issues couldn't they just sue to enforce the fact that they didn't pay their bill in the other suite? Also unless they have zero assets in the EU wouldn't other member states potentially be an option to seize said assets?
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    I don't think that the trial decision in a foreign court is binding in US courts. The US court will not enforce them because they are completely different jurisdictions
    - jedberg 4y ago
      I'm not 100% sure but I think one of our treaties with the Netherlands is that we enforce each other's laws/court judgements.
      - junofan 4y ago
        Think the US famously never signs treaties like that. Our courts decide.
      - s1artibartfast 4y ago
        Looks like it comes down to a each state to determine how and if they will honor decisions for other Nations. Here is some information I could find[1]. Obviously, there is a lot of variability here, and I don't there are blanket agreements to enforce judgements. It is hard to imagine the Netherlands forcing payment for an abortion damages judgement from a Texas court . https://www.gibsondunn.com/wp-content/uploads/documents/publications/Edelman-Jura-Enforcement-of-Foreign-Judgments-US.pdf https://www.gibsondunn.com/wp-content/uploads/documents/publ...

daniel-cussen 4y ago

stefan_ 4y ago

This is an employment action. There is a good chance it pierces the corporate veil. So yes, they can avoid paying, if their directors never want to enter the EU again.

gnicholas 4y ago
Why would this pierce the veil? That’s a pretty high bar, and I don’t remember learning that employment actions are much more likely to satisfy the requirements.
- fsckboy 4y ago
  payment of wages owed to employees frequently pierces the corporate veil.
  - gnicholas 4y ago
    Sure, if the employee being paid is an owner of the company. But in this case, I can't imagine how it would be relevant. Perhaps you know more about Dutch law and piercing the corporate veil, but my training as a US lawyer has me scratching my head on this one.

PebblesRox 4y ago

I thought they closed up their Dutch branch after the firing, not after the court case: "Less than a week after the plaintiff was fired, the Rijswijk branch of Chetu Inc. was deregistered from the Chamber of Commerce and shut down on 2 September, records show." Seems fishy, but could an innocent explanation be that he was their only Dutch employee?