3 ms·

Its also not legal in Germany, in fact, its pretty impossible to legally give a bad reference. HR departments have a workaround though - instead of a bad refer

Its also not legal in Germany, in fact, its pretty impossible to legally give a bad reference. HR departments have a workaround though - instead of a bad reference, they will simply confirm that yes, you worked there. Nothing else.

tharkun__ 4y ago
Are reference letters no longer done in Germany? When I was there that was how this was done. Basically you would always get a reference letter when ending employment. The reference letter's language always sounds good, as in not giving a bad reference. However, a reference letter that states things like "employee X delivered his tasks on time and to the satisfaction of work standards" basically means that he's a slacker that does mediocre work at best. It has to say something like "We are ultimately saddened for employee X leaving because he always delivered his work early and to the highest standard thinkable". These are bad made-up English language examples to show the difference in language but there's basically template language HR departments use for this.
- _nalply 4y ago
  Yes, this was a thing already thirty years ago. There's even a term for them: coded reference letters. I even got a reference letter explicitly declaring that it doesn't contain hidden codes. https://www.arbeitszeugnis.de/presse/geheimcodeliste.pdf https://www.arbeitszeugnis.de/presse/geheimcodeliste.pdf (German) This shows that there's a conflict: law forbids to discriminate someone with a bad review of their capability, motivation or fitness. But people always seem to try to work around this prohibition. Like giving a friendly declaration that someone worked at a company if they weren't impressed and give an enthusiastic recommendation in the other case.
- biztos 4y ago
  They are still a thing, though I don't know how common. My own experience on leaving a big company fairly recently was they were available if you wanted one, and you were expected to write your own and submit it for approval, in German and/or English at your discretion. I didn't bother, but if my future plans had included being an employee at a big company in Germany I definitely would have done so.
- nibbleshifter 4y ago
  I never got a reference letter when leaving at any of my German employers, but when references were checked that's how it worked - the language would either be explicitly good, or "neutral good" meaning bad.
3np 4y ago
So I guess anyone working at a German company will want to make really sure their HR department is in on this before leaving :p
denton-scratch 4y ago
> yes, you worked there. Nothing else. That's the norm in most places, isn't it? He didn't steal anything, he wasn't sacked, he didn't punch-out the boss, and he didn't shit on the carpet. Nobody wants to be sued for giving a decent reference. My dad was a soldier; his retirement reference (age 45) said something like "He is an oustanding officer who will succeed at any enterprise he turns his hand to". That impressed me, until I learned that any officer retiring from the army will get a reference pretty-much the same. Note that retiring from the army at age 45 is very common. If you get to 45 without getting promoted past colonel, you need a new career, because serious promotion happens when your CO gets killed in combat; and beyond about 45, they won't be sending you into combat.
csa 4y ago
> HR departments have a workaround though - instead of a bad reference, they will simply confirm that yes, you worked there. Nothing else. This works in the US as well.
Roark66 4y ago
Having worked in UK for over a decade with various employers I never got an actual reference letter other than a confirmation of employment. Nor I have ever been asked for one when being hired. In fact if I remember correctly it might have been stated in some company documents that "they don't give references" and that "they'll confirm the job start and end date, the employee's job title and number of sick days taken and nothing else(that's required by the law if I remember correctly)". Although I had managers privately tell me of their willingness "to talk to" anyone I might need to give a reference to in private. I never knew in Germany one is expected to obtain actual proper reference letters from past employers. Good to know just in case. Long time ago (15+ years ago) I had worked in Poland. Back then I did get a written reference from the company I worked for. I can't say if those letters are required these days in PL.

tharkun__ 4y ago

Are reference letters no longer done in Germany? When I was there that was how this was done. Basically you would always get a reference letter when ending employment. The reference letter's language always sounds good, as in not giving a bad reference. However, a reference letter that states things like "employee X delivered his tasks on time and to the satisfaction of work standards" basically means that he's a slacker that does mediocre work at best. It has to say something like "We are ultimately saddened for employee X leaving because he always delivered his work early and to the highest standard thinkable". These are bad made-up English language examples to show the difference in language but there's basically template language HR departments use for this.

_nalply 4y ago
Yes, this was a thing already thirty years ago. There's even a term for them: coded reference letters. I even got a reference letter explicitly declaring that it doesn't contain hidden codes. https://www.arbeitszeugnis.de/presse/geheimcodeliste.pdf https://www.arbeitszeugnis.de/presse/geheimcodeliste.pdf (German) This shows that there's a conflict: law forbids to discriminate someone with a bad review of their capability, motivation or fitness. But people always seem to try to work around this prohibition. Like giving a friendly declaration that someone worked at a company if they weren't impressed and give an enthusiastic recommendation in the other case.
biztos 4y ago
They are still a thing, though I don't know how common. My own experience on leaving a big company fairly recently was they were available if you wanted one, and you were expected to write your own and submit it for approval, in German and/or English at your discretion. I didn't bother, but if my future plans had included being an employee at a big company in Germany I definitely would have done so.
nibbleshifter 4y ago
I never got a reference letter when leaving at any of my German employers, but when references were checked that's how it worked - the language would either be explicitly good, or "neutral good" meaning bad.

3np 4y ago

So I guess anyone working at a German company will want to make really sure their HR department is in on this before leaving :p

denton-scratch 4y ago

> yes, you worked there. Nothing else. That's the norm in most places, isn't it? He didn't steal anything, he wasn't sacked, he didn't punch-out the boss, and he didn't shit on the carpet. Nobody wants to be sued for giving a decent reference. My dad was a soldier; his retirement reference (age 45) said something like "He is an oustanding officer who will succeed at any enterprise he turns his hand to". That impressed me, until I learned that any officer retiring from the army will get a reference pretty-much the same. Note that retiring from the army at age 45 is very common. If you get to 45 without getting promoted past colonel, you need a new career, because serious promotion happens when your CO gets killed in combat; and beyond about 45, they won't be sending you into combat.

csa 4y ago

> HR departments have a workaround though - instead of a bad reference, they will simply confirm that yes, you worked there. Nothing else. This works in the US as well.

Roark66 4y ago

Having worked in UK for over a decade with various employers I never got an actual reference letter other than a confirmation of employment. Nor I have ever been asked for one when being hired. In fact if I remember correctly it might have been stated in some company documents that "they don't give references" and that "they'll confirm the job start and end date, the employee's job title and number of sick days taken and nothing else(that's required by the law if I remember correctly)". Although I had managers privately tell me of their willingness "to talk to" anyone I might need to give a reference to in private. I never knew in Germany one is expected to obtain actual proper reference letters from past employers. Good to know just in case. Long time ago (15+ years ago) I had worked in Poland. Back then I did get a written reference from the company I worked for. I can't say if those letters are required these days in PL.