5 ms·

That is not a hot take my friend? Do you pay your taxes? Sales taxes? Does the company you work for pay their taxes? Do you intend on retiring with a pension at

by trevvr 4y ago

That is not a hot take my friend? Do you pay your taxes? Sales taxes? Does the company you work for pay their taxes? Do you intend on retiring with a pension at some point? Rising tides and boats comes to mind.

phpisthebest 4y ago
Well now we are going to get into more unpopular hot takes, because IMO income based taxation is theft.... I do not plain on retiring, and if I did I do not expect government social security (I am in the US) will be there to fund it so I do have a private retirement account that currently the US Monetary policy and government regulations/spending is doing its level best to destroy
- croes 4y ago
  Taxes are the membership fee of society
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    There are many public finance options to fund society in more equal way than taking a persons labor. If there is anything akin to "wage slavery" in modern times it is more because of income tax than anything else Personal I am supporter of the Henry George Single Tax model to fund society instead of income based taxation
    - Jochim 4y ago
      Personally I think the only problem with current taxes is the primitive nature of the bands in most cases and that non-labour income is often taxed far less heavily. Progressive taxation is our most effective tool for ensuring that a few people don't end up owning everything. For those of us who end up wealthier than the rest it's the price you pay for society providing you with a healthy, educated workforce, currency, roads etc.
      - phpisthebest 4y ago
        Well that leads to another problem, because I do not equate government with "society" nor do I believe government is the only, or best way for society to provide " a healthy, educated workforce, currency, roads etc. " In fact history shows that government is generally pretty poor at providing any of those things
        Jochim 4y ago
        > nor do I believe government is the only, or best way for society to provide " a healthy, educated workforce, currency, roads etc. " To me the obvious flaw in this type of society has always been that it provides no guard against the concentration of wealth and by proxy power. It works with a theoretical amorphous blob of people who have no ties to location and an infinite supply of land and resources. In reality the populace would quickly become slaves, with the only interest of the organisations in control of their food, shelter, and transport being the extraction of ever larger sums of money. I'm honestly not sure how someone could look at the state of the corporate world and say "I wish these guys controlled more of my life". We've already seen this type of rent seeking become prominent in digital media and it hasn't improved anything for the populace. The profit motive is functional enough for things that aren't necessities but we know exactly what happens when a profit driven entity has a near or local monopoly on something necessary for life. Look to the early railroads and company towns as an example. > In fact history shows that government is generally pretty poor at providing any of those things That's a bold claim without any proof. I'd argue the opposite. The vast majority of the population is now both numerate and literate and most countries have a usable road and rail network that's accessible to everyone. Beyond that government programs have been responsible for the eradication of multiple diseases.
        Kbelicius 4y ago
        > In fact history shows that government is generally pretty poor at providing any of those things And who does history shows as being better at it?
    - unity1001 4y ago
      > If there is anything akin to "wage slavery" in modern times it is more because of income tax than anything else Don't invent stuff to make an argument. Wage slavery is what happens in the 'free market'. The very invention of wage slavery was to make conditions of slavery happen after slavery was abolished so that former slaveowners wouldnt go bankrupt. It was implemented in post civil war US, then it was copied by Brazilian slaveowners when slavery was abolished in Brazil.
  - cpsns 4y ago
    More of a hostage situation given one can’t opt out of said society nor has a choice in joining it.
- pasquinelli 4y ago
  you'll get older and things will happen to you. at some point, before you die unless you die in a catastrophic situation, you won't be capable of working anymore. it's just facts of life.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    Dont worry my eating habits and lack of exercise will likely ensure I will die in that catastrophic situation you speak of
- Xelynega 4y ago
  > IMO income based taxation is theft.... How could income based taxation be theft unless we're considering all profit theft? Either it's immoral for someone with power over you to demand part of the value you produce or it isn't.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    Profit in a market economy is derived from a voluntary exchange of goods/services for currency. I buy a Ribeye because I obtian more value from the Ribeye than I do the $18 in my bank account, However if that ribeye goes to $25 I now value the $25 more than the Ribeye so I dont buy it instead I buy a Chicken Breast. These are choices I make in a free(ish) market. Companies offer their goods, I choose to buy or not Similar with labor, I go to the market offer my knowledge and labor for a Wage, if I set my price to high companies will refuse to hire me, if I set my price to low I am missing out on profit. Income Taxation is in no way voluntary exchange like that, the government with the full authority to initiate violence injects itself with a demand that for every hour of labor I sell I must provide the government with a 10-40% cut of not only my profit from the sell but the gross transaction price. They do so under the threat of violence (aka imprisonment) if I refuse their order. The fact is that the government, like a common thief, says to a person: Your money, or your life...The government does not, indeed, waylay a person in a lonely place, spring upon him from the road side and, holding a pistol to his head, proceed to rifle his pockets. But the robbery is none the less a robbery on that account; and it is far more dastardly and shameful.
    - unity1001 4y ago
      > Income Taxation is in no way voluntary exchange like that Take a weekend off and calculate how much 'fees' you would have to pay for 'private defense services', infrastructure, judiciary, police and all the other things if they were made private. > The fact is that the government, like a common thief, says to a person: Your money, or your life What religious delirium. > But the robbery is none the less a robbery on that account; and it is far more dastardly and shameful. The dastarty act of providing military, police, firefighting, law, justice, social services - all the things that make you live in a modern society instead of living in the former late feudal society where you wouldn't even have the social rank in order to be able to talk against your feudal lord in public like this. There is no magical, divine, extraterrestrial or supernatural force that provides this modern society that you live in, and all the rights and freedoms that you have in that society. We, the people, have managed to make that happen through the mechanisms we invented. And one of those mechanisms is the state that is owned by its people.
- unity1001 4y ago
  > because IMO income based taxation is theft Only in the ultra far right US. Where everything works so perfectly because of that belief. https://www.businessinsider.com/asce-gives-us-infrastructure-a-d-2017-3 https://www.businessinsider.com/asce-gives-us-infrastructure...
- lowbloodsugar 4y ago
  When I take your property by force, do you plan to hire a security team to get it back, and then hope that I don’t have more money, and a bigger security team? Or are you one of these libertarians that suddenly sees the value in a government that enshrines in law the concept of “property rights” and implements enforcement?
- astrange 4y ago
  > Well now we are going to get into more unpopular hot takes, because IMO income based taxation is theft.... Most of the other replies to this point are not really that helpful. The actual economic point is that since income taxes apply to /everyone/, they do not make you in particular less rich, because your relative amount of money is maintained. In fact, they're one of the main things making the currency valuable by providing demand for it, so you could say they're what make you rich. VATs are more effective taxes at collecting revenue though, which is why most European countries use them, but only land value taxes avoid deadweight loss. Thanks Henry George.

by trevvr 4y ago

phpisthebest 4y ago

Well now we are going to get into more unpopular hot takes, because IMO income based taxation is theft.... I do not plain on retiring, and if I did I do not expect government social security (I am in the US) will be there to fund it so I do have a private retirement account that currently the US Monetary policy and government regulations/spending is doing its level best to destroy

croes 4y ago
Taxes are the membership fee of society
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  There are many public finance options to fund society in more equal way than taking a persons labor. If there is anything akin to "wage slavery" in modern times it is more because of income tax than anything else Personal I am supporter of the Henry George Single Tax model to fund society instead of income based taxation
  - Jochim 4y ago
    Personally I think the only problem with current taxes is the primitive nature of the bands in most cases and that non-labour income is often taxed far less heavily. Progressive taxation is our most effective tool for ensuring that a few people don't end up owning everything. For those of us who end up wealthier than the rest it's the price you pay for society providing you with a healthy, educated workforce, currency, roads etc.
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      Well that leads to another problem, because I do not equate government with "society" nor do I believe government is the only, or best way for society to provide " a healthy, educated workforce, currency, roads etc. " In fact history shows that government is generally pretty poor at providing any of those things
      - Jochim 4y ago
        > nor do I believe government is the only, or best way for society to provide " a healthy, educated workforce, currency, roads etc. " To me the obvious flaw in this type of society has always been that it provides no guard against the concentration of wealth and by proxy power. It works with a theoretical amorphous blob of people who have no ties to location and an infinite supply of land and resources. In reality the populace would quickly become slaves, with the only interest of the organisations in control of their food, shelter, and transport being the extraction of ever larger sums of money. I'm honestly not sure how someone could look at the state of the corporate world and say "I wish these guys controlled more of my life". We've already seen this type of rent seeking become prominent in digital media and it hasn't improved anything for the populace. The profit motive is functional enough for things that aren't necessities but we know exactly what happens when a profit driven entity has a near or local monopoly on something necessary for life. Look to the early railroads and company towns as an example. > In fact history shows that government is generally pretty poor at providing any of those things That's a bold claim without any proof. I'd argue the opposite. The vast majority of the population is now both numerate and literate and most countries have a usable road and rail network that's accessible to everyone. Beyond that government programs have been responsible for the eradication of multiple diseases.
      - Kbelicius 4y ago
        > In fact history shows that government is generally pretty poor at providing any of those things And who does history shows as being better at it?
  - unity1001 4y ago
    > If there is anything akin to "wage slavery" in modern times it is more because of income tax than anything else Don't invent stuff to make an argument. Wage slavery is what happens in the 'free market'. The very invention of wage slavery was to make conditions of slavery happen after slavery was abolished so that former slaveowners wouldnt go bankrupt. It was implemented in post civil war US, then it was copied by Brazilian slaveowners when slavery was abolished in Brazil.
- cpsns 4y ago
  More of a hostage situation given one can’t opt out of said society nor has a choice in joining it.
pasquinelli 4y ago
you'll get older and things will happen to you. at some point, before you die unless you die in a catastrophic situation, you won't be capable of working anymore. it's just facts of life.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  Dont worry my eating habits and lack of exercise will likely ensure I will die in that catastrophic situation you speak of
Xelynega 4y ago
> IMO income based taxation is theft.... How could income based taxation be theft unless we're considering all profit theft? Either it's immoral for someone with power over you to demand part of the value you produce or it isn't.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  Profit in a market economy is derived from a voluntary exchange of goods/services for currency. I buy a Ribeye because I obtian more value from the Ribeye than I do the $18 in my bank account, However if that ribeye goes to $25 I now value the $25 more than the Ribeye so I dont buy it instead I buy a Chicken Breast. These are choices I make in a free(ish) market. Companies offer their goods, I choose to buy or not Similar with labor, I go to the market offer my knowledge and labor for a Wage, if I set my price to high companies will refuse to hire me, if I set my price to low I am missing out on profit. Income Taxation is in no way voluntary exchange like that, the government with the full authority to initiate violence injects itself with a demand that for every hour of labor I sell I must provide the government with a 10-40% cut of not only my profit from the sell but the gross transaction price. They do so under the threat of violence (aka imprisonment) if I refuse their order. The fact is that the government, like a common thief, says to a person: Your money, or your life...The government does not, indeed, waylay a person in a lonely place, spring upon him from the road side and, holding a pistol to his head, proceed to rifle his pockets. But the robbery is none the less a robbery on that account; and it is far more dastardly and shameful.
  - unity1001 4y ago
    > Income Taxation is in no way voluntary exchange like that Take a weekend off and calculate how much 'fees' you would have to pay for 'private defense services', infrastructure, judiciary, police and all the other things if they were made private. > The fact is that the government, like a common thief, says to a person: Your money, or your life What religious delirium. > But the robbery is none the less a robbery on that account; and it is far more dastardly and shameful. The dastarty act of providing military, police, firefighting, law, justice, social services - all the things that make you live in a modern society instead of living in the former late feudal society where you wouldn't even have the social rank in order to be able to talk against your feudal lord in public like this. There is no magical, divine, extraterrestrial or supernatural force that provides this modern society that you live in, and all the rights and freedoms that you have in that society. We, the people, have managed to make that happen through the mechanisms we invented. And one of those mechanisms is the state that is owned by its people.
unity1001 4y ago
> because IMO income based taxation is theft Only in the ultra far right US. Where everything works so perfectly because of that belief. https://www.businessinsider.com/asce-gives-us-infrastructure-a-d-2017-3 https://www.businessinsider.com/asce-gives-us-infrastructure...
lowbloodsugar 4y ago
When I take your property by force, do you plan to hire a security team to get it back, and then hope that I don’t have more money, and a bigger security team? Or are you one of these libertarians that suddenly sees the value in a government that enshrines in law the concept of “property rights” and implements enforcement?
astrange 4y ago
> Well now we are going to get into more unpopular hot takes, because IMO income based taxation is theft.... Most of the other replies to this point are not really that helpful. The actual economic point is that since income taxes apply to /everyone/, they do not make you in particular less rich, because your relative amount of money is maintained. In fact, they're one of the main things making the currency valuable by providing demand for it, so you could say they're what make you rich. VATs are more effective taxes at collecting revenue though, which is why most European countries use them, but only land value taxes avoid deadweight loss. Thanks Henry George.