4 ms·

I'm sure that will be a great comfort to the Asian kid who was born in poverty, got bullied in school, struggled all his life to achieve the grades and stats to

I'm sure that will be a great comfort to the Asian kid who was born in poverty, got bullied in school, struggled all his life to achieve the grades and stats to qualify for a top school, then got rejected in favor of a rich black American kid, since he was born with the wrong skin color.

nerdponx 4y ago
Like I said, there are plenty of valid arguments against it. But they aren't equivalent, which is what I was specifically responding to.
- NeverFade 4y ago
  It's racism with better excuses.
NoraCodes 4y ago
Hmm, this is not a good criticism of affirmative action programs. A child from a rich family, of whatever race, is far more likely to be able to attend the college of their (or their parents') choice, based on a wide array of factors. This is mitigated somewhat by federal and institutional need-based and merit-based aid, but I don't think it's really supportable to say that it's exacerbated by affirmative action. If your concern really is that poor students aren't able to access as many opportunities as wealthy students, you should be some flavor of socialist, as under capitalism, wealth inherently comes with more opportunity. In clearer words: I think you made this situation up without considering other factors because you have an ideological agenda.
- NeverFade 4y ago
  > I think you made this situation up without considering other factors because you have an ideological agenda. > Arcidiacono shows that, after narrowing down applicants to those with the strongest objective academic qualifications, Asian Americans were far more likely than blacks or Hispanics to receive a low personality score from admissions officers. https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2018/06/harvard-admissions-personality/563198/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2018/06/harvar... So we know for a fact that Asians received lower "personality" scores than blacks and hispanics, as a racial group and regardless of their financial status, and these lower "personality" scores were used as a basis to reject Asians and accept black and hispanic candidates. TL;DR we know for a fact this exact thing is happening.
  - NoraCodes 4y ago
    Yeah, that sounds like racial discrimination against Asian students! You'll note that I did not say there was no such thing as racial discrimination against Asian students, so I'm not sure how this is relevant.
    - NeverFade 4y ago
      So we know there is racial discrimination against Asians based on their race, and in favor of blacks and hispanics. Yet when I cited an example of an Asian kid getting rejected in favor of a black kid, you claimed I invented it. When you now admit we know it is happening.
      - NoraCodes 4y ago
        At no point did I say that wasn't happening. I was responding to your comment about economic factors. Did I misunderstand your original comment? You said: > I'm sure that will be a great comfort to the Asian kid who was born in poverty, got bullied in school, struggled all his life to achieve the grades and stats to qualify for a top school, then got rejected in favor of a rich black American kid Is this not about the interaction between economic status and race in the context of affirmative action?
        NeverFade 4y ago
        > In clearer words: I think you made this situation up > At no point did I say that wasn't happening. So it is happening, yet "I made it up"? It is both real and made up, at the same time?
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        NoraCodes 4y ago
        You made up the relationship between economic status and race in this particular situation in order to strike an emotional chord. No?
- P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
  https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/jun/15/asian-americans-supreme-court-case-against-harvard/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/jun/15/asian-ameri... https://nypost.com/2022/09/10/affirmative-action-hurts-asian-americansbut-the-left-just-shrugs/ https://nypost.com/2022/09/10/affirmative-action-hurts-asian... How confident you are that you are not the ignorant one.
  - NoraCodes 4y ago
    I'm always open to being wrong, but I'm also pretty confident that you lack in reading comprehension skills. The argument GP was making was about affirmative action being a net negative for impoverished students, and this is, as far as I can tell, utterly irrelevant to that argument.
    - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
      They accused the other poster of making up the situation in which asian students are unfairly disadvantaged. drives a semi through the weasel wording of 'other factors' One wonders if slaves had other factors too.
      - NoraCodes 4y ago
        Most of the words in the comment I replied to were dedicated to describing the economic status of the hypothetical people involved, and I think I did a good job of making it clear that that's what I was responding to. > One wonders if slaves had other factors too. This strikes me as deeply irrelevant and a major rhetorical escalation. My argument was that it's unreasonable to link economic discrimination and racial affirmative action.
        P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
        You opened your post with the following quote: > this is not a good criticism of affirmative action programs. I then pointed out we have statistics showing affirmative action unfairly disadvantages Asians and that the supreme court is going to hear arguments about it. "but but ... I was talking about ECONOMIC discrimination!". No, you're just a fan of weasel words. What you were trying to imply with your comment about "other factors" is that these asian students have less soft skills than other ethnicities (I know because this is a common defense). Apparently citing standardized test scoring as a reason for accepting less black applicants is racist, but citing soft skills as a reason for accepting less asian students isn't. discrimination for me, but not for thee?

nerdponx 4y ago

Like I said, there are plenty of valid arguments against it. But they aren't equivalent, which is what I was specifically responding to.

NeverFade 4y ago
It's racism with better excuses.

NoraCodes 4y ago

Hmm, this is not a good criticism of affirmative action programs. A child from a rich family, of whatever race, is far more likely to be able to attend the college of their (or their parents') choice, based on a wide array of factors. This is mitigated somewhat by federal and institutional need-based and merit-based aid, but I don't think it's really supportable to say that it's exacerbated by affirmative action. If your concern really is that poor students aren't able to access as many opportunities as wealthy students, you should be some flavor of socialist, as under capitalism, wealth inherently comes with more opportunity. In clearer words: I think you made this situation up without considering other factors because you have an ideological agenda.

NeverFade 4y ago
> I think you made this situation up without considering other factors because you have an ideological agenda. > Arcidiacono shows that, after narrowing down applicants to those with the strongest objective academic qualifications, Asian Americans were far more likely than blacks or Hispanics to receive a low personality score from admissions officers. https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2018/06/harvard-admissions-personality/563198/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2018/06/harvar... So we know for a fact that Asians received lower "personality" scores than blacks and hispanics, as a racial group and regardless of their financial status, and these lower "personality" scores were used as a basis to reject Asians and accept black and hispanic candidates. TL;DR we know for a fact this exact thing is happening.
- NoraCodes 4y ago
  Yeah, that sounds like racial discrimination against Asian students! You'll note that I did not say there was no such thing as racial discrimination against Asian students, so I'm not sure how this is relevant.
  - NeverFade 4y ago
    So we know there is racial discrimination against Asians based on their race, and in favor of blacks and hispanics. Yet when I cited an example of an Asian kid getting rejected in favor of a black kid, you claimed I invented it. When you now admit we know it is happening.
    - NoraCodes 4y ago
      At no point did I say that wasn't happening. I was responding to your comment about economic factors. Did I misunderstand your original comment? You said: > I'm sure that will be a great comfort to the Asian kid who was born in poverty, got bullied in school, struggled all his life to achieve the grades and stats to qualify for a top school, then got rejected in favor of a rich black American kid Is this not about the interaction between economic status and race in the context of affirmative action?
      - NeverFade 4y ago
        > In clearer words: I think you made this situation up > At no point did I say that wasn't happening. So it is happening, yet "I made it up"? It is both real and made up, at the same time?
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        NoraCodes 4y ago
        You made up the relationship between economic status and race in this particular situation in order to strike an emotional chord. No?
P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/jun/15/asian-americans-supreme-court-case-against-harvard/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/jun/15/asian-ameri... https://nypost.com/2022/09/10/affirmative-action-hurts-asian-americansbut-the-left-just-shrugs/ https://nypost.com/2022/09/10/affirmative-action-hurts-asian... How confident you are that you are not the ignorant one.
- NoraCodes 4y ago
  I'm always open to being wrong, but I'm also pretty confident that you lack in reading comprehension skills. The argument GP was making was about affirmative action being a net negative for impoverished students, and this is, as far as I can tell, utterly irrelevant to that argument.
  - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
    They accused the other poster of making up the situation in which asian students are unfairly disadvantaged. drives a semi through the weasel wording of 'other factors' One wonders if slaves had other factors too.
    - NoraCodes 4y ago
      Most of the words in the comment I replied to were dedicated to describing the economic status of the hypothetical people involved, and I think I did a good job of making it clear that that's what I was responding to. > One wonders if slaves had other factors too. This strikes me as deeply irrelevant and a major rhetorical escalation. My argument was that it's unreasonable to link economic discrimination and racial affirmative action.
      - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
        You opened your post with the following quote: > this is not a good criticism of affirmative action programs. I then pointed out we have statistics showing affirmative action unfairly disadvantages Asians and that the supreme court is going to hear arguments about it. "but but ... I was talking about ECONOMIC discrimination!". No, you're just a fan of weasel words. What you were trying to imply with your comment about "other factors" is that these asian students have less soft skills than other ethnicities (I know because this is a common defense). Apparently citing standardized test scoring as a reason for accepting less black applicants is racist, but citing soft skills as a reason for accepting less asian students isn't. discrimination for me, but not for thee?