5 ms·

> Many of them just can't speak English correctly. Only a small percentage of the individuals who speak English at a proficient level of those who do, they pred

> Many of them just can't speak English correctly. Only a small percentage of the individuals who speak English at a proficient level of those who do, they predominately come from very wealthy upper caste families and now you have a new problem. There is something very confusing to me in this paragraph. You put forth as a premise (at least if I am understanding the logic of the paragraph correctly) that fluency in English is an important skill for doing a job properly. You also say that it is the wealthy part of the population that will have access to resources to train their children in that skill. All good so far. But then you say that it is a problem, and this is where I am lost. Are you suggesting that money should not buy good education? Assuming good education is a scarce commodity, that would go against the principles of markets. Or are you suggesting that English fluency (or other consequences of good education) should not be considered when screening for a job in a tech company? But that goes against your initial premise, and also makes one wonder what purpose a good education has if not getting one prepared for a high-skilled job.

voidwtf 4y ago
I think he might be implying some issues related to the caste system. It’s been discussed on HN before about how some members of the upper caste may not treat other team members from a lower caste appropriately. Despite no longer being in India, and despite that behavior not being acceptable in the host country.
- petilon 4y ago
  > It’s been discussed on HN before... Yes, it has been used on HN as a bludgeon but the reality is a little different! Yes, the ancient caste system still exists in India. But today it is only relevant when it comes to politics and marriage. Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/16/opinion/sunday/caste-is-not-past.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/16/opinion/sunday/caste-is-no...
  - notart666 4y ago
    The fact you believe it to only be relevant in marriage and politics goes to show the naivety of your understanding of how prevalent this 2000+ year caste system is. I'd go as far as calling it the oldest system of systemic slavery in the world. The fact it plays such a level to this day in the modern lives of individuals shows how the Indians have normalized it in their society and often directly bring it into our own. It even goes as far as impacting children, and starts from their. Who they know. Who they can interact with. Where they're accepted. At every step impacting and controlling their lives. To claim what you have said to trivialize it is kind of shocking to me.
    - petilon 4y ago
      A lot of false claims in this thread are being made by people who see these immigrants as a competitive threat.
- sk0g 4y ago
  From personal experience, I've heard plenty of caste-based insults when I was there a decade or so ago, as well as other forms of prejudice. This manifests most explicitly when it comes to marriages I think, but it would be naïve to assume nepotism, and by extension caste-based discrimination, doesn't proliferate to other aspects of life.
thebigjewbowski 4y ago
I assume that he meant they are well educated, skilled and thusly won’t be working for dirt cheap as they’d have better options. He said the problem isn’t with hiring Indians, it is with cheap labor.
P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
India works on a caste system, said caste system being very discriminatory. What the other poster meant is that you'll end up hiring out of the upper castes and they'll display a lot of bias towards other castes. It's to the point that many from India won't admit to the caste they're in.
- ushtaritk421 4y ago
  I mean, legally they are not in a caste, right? Does the Indian state recognize caste?
  - KrishnaShripad 4y ago
    Yes Indian state recognizes all castes. That is the core problem. For the system to be dismantled you need the Indian state to stop recognizing castes and implement US style Affirmative Action and only provide Reservation opportunities to those from low income groups. But the first ones to fight against this reform would be the "lower caste" strata of the population. Who would give up freebies, Government jobs as well as an education in Prestigious Universities where you can guaranteed to get it based on your birth caste and not on merit? No one would. If I am born in any of the "lower caste" groups I can easily get a Government job, free/subsidized education in any Prestigious University irrespective of my scores/performance. Now there is talk of reservation/quotas in land distribution as well (comments by a politician in a recent speech to his base). Idea is that if you want to purchase land some section of the land is reserved if you belong to a particular caste (and will probably be available for lower than market rate as well). However ridiculous it might sound. Affirmative Action in US doesn't have a quota system or reservation. It instead focuses on equal opportunity (no denial of opportunity to anyone based on their race/creed/color/sex/religion etc). This is different from India's Caste based reservation system where you are guaranteed of a job/education if you belong to lower caste. Doesn't matter if you are merited or not. Doesn't matter if you are rich or not. Even seats in the Parliament of India have reservations/quotas for lower castes. It is ridiculous to talk about dismantling caste system while in the same breath prop up structures that actively promotes this same caste system on the Government level. And the Politicians do not want to dismantle said system because it helps with their vote bank.
sarmasamosarma 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
LeonB 4y ago
The sentence referred to here: > All good so far. But then you say that it is a problem, and this is where I am lost. …Is not referring to a problem that has, at that point in the story, been revealed. It is being evocative in a sort of dog-whistle technique - before jumping into the generalisations that follow.
indian_ark 4y ago
It's used to be the case that, high caste people (Brahmins mostly) are the ones who can afford higher education and in turn they can speak English fluently compared to others in India. They were also the first to emigrate and likely hold high level positions in many companies. Fortunately, this situation is changing rapidly. I don't see any caste discrimination in my line of work (urban IT companies). Nearly none of my coworkers know my caste, they don't care, neither am I. It does happen in rural villages, specially inter caste marriages are still frowned upon. But it getting less effective over time. Determined people go make money and caste is not a hinder in many cases.
vhgyu75e6u 4y ago
Maybe you should dust off your reading compression skills, his paragraph is pretty self explanatory. He is saying that those who speak English usually come from wealthy families and those whealty families have been raised to treat people from lower caste poorly.
- azangru 4y ago
  > Maybe you should dust off your reading compression skills, his paragraph is pretty self explanatory Thank you for your suggestion :-) Can you show where this specific point: "...and those whealty families have been raised to treat people from lower caste poorly" is made in his (we are assuming it's a he, aren't we? how bad of us) comment?
throwaway45643 4y ago

voidwtf 4y ago

I think he might be implying some issues related to the caste system. It’s been discussed on HN before about how some members of the upper caste may not treat other team members from a lower caste appropriately. Despite no longer being in India, and despite that behavior not being acceptable in the host country.

petilon 4y ago
> It’s been discussed on HN before... Yes, it has been used on HN as a bludgeon but the reality is a little different! Yes, the ancient caste system still exists in India. But today it is only relevant when it comes to politics and marriage. Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/16/opinion/sunday/caste-is-not-past.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/16/opinion/sunday/caste-is-no...
- notart666 4y ago
  The fact you believe it to only be relevant in marriage and politics goes to show the naivety of your understanding of how prevalent this 2000+ year caste system is. I'd go as far as calling it the oldest system of systemic slavery in the world. The fact it plays such a level to this day in the modern lives of individuals shows how the Indians have normalized it in their society and often directly bring it into our own. It even goes as far as impacting children, and starts from their. Who they know. Who they can interact with. Where they're accepted. At every step impacting and controlling their lives. To claim what you have said to trivialize it is kind of shocking to me.
  - petilon 4y ago
    A lot of false claims in this thread are being made by people who see these immigrants as a competitive threat.
sk0g 4y ago
From personal experience, I've heard plenty of caste-based insults when I was there a decade or so ago, as well as other forms of prejudice. This manifests most explicitly when it comes to marriages I think, but it would be naïve to assume nepotism, and by extension caste-based discrimination, doesn't proliferate to other aspects of life.

thebigjewbowski 4y ago

I assume that he meant they are well educated, skilled and thusly won’t be working for dirt cheap as they’d have better options. He said the problem isn’t with hiring Indians, it is with cheap labor.

P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago

India works on a caste system, said caste system being very discriminatory. What the other poster meant is that you'll end up hiring out of the upper castes and they'll display a lot of bias towards other castes. It's to the point that many from India won't admit to the caste they're in.

ushtaritk421 4y ago
I mean, legally they are not in a caste, right? Does the Indian state recognize caste?
- KrishnaShripad 4y ago
  Yes Indian state recognizes all castes. That is the core problem. For the system to be dismantled you need the Indian state to stop recognizing castes and implement US style Affirmative Action and only provide Reservation opportunities to those from low income groups. But the first ones to fight against this reform would be the "lower caste" strata of the population. Who would give up freebies, Government jobs as well as an education in Prestigious Universities where you can guaranteed to get it based on your birth caste and not on merit? No one would. If I am born in any of the "lower caste" groups I can easily get a Government job, free/subsidized education in any Prestigious University irrespective of my scores/performance. Now there is talk of reservation/quotas in land distribution as well (comments by a politician in a recent speech to his base). Idea is that if you want to purchase land some section of the land is reserved if you belong to a particular caste (and will probably be available for lower than market rate as well). However ridiculous it might sound. Affirmative Action in US doesn't have a quota system or reservation. It instead focuses on equal opportunity (no denial of opportunity to anyone based on their race/creed/color/sex/religion etc). This is different from India's Caste based reservation system where you are guaranteed of a job/education if you belong to lower caste. Doesn't matter if you are merited or not. Doesn't matter if you are rich or not. Even seats in the Parliament of India have reservations/quotas for lower castes. It is ridiculous to talk about dismantling caste system while in the same breath prop up structures that actively promotes this same caste system on the Government level. And the Politicians do not want to dismantle said system because it helps with their vote bank.

sarmasamosarma 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

LeonB 4y ago

The sentence referred to here: > All good so far. But then you say that it is a problem, and this is where I am lost. …Is not referring to a problem that has, at that point in the story, been revealed. It is being evocative in a sort of dog-whistle technique - before jumping into the generalisations that follow.

indian_ark 4y ago

It's used to be the case that, high caste people (Brahmins mostly) are the ones who can afford higher education and in turn they can speak English fluently compared to others in India. They were also the first to emigrate and likely hold high level positions in many companies. Fortunately, this situation is changing rapidly. I don't see any caste discrimination in my line of work (urban IT companies). Nearly none of my coworkers know my caste, they don't care, neither am I. It does happen in rural villages, specially inter caste marriages are still frowned upon. But it getting less effective over time. Determined people go make money and caste is not a hinder in many cases.

vhgyu75e6u 4y ago

Maybe you should dust off your reading compression skills, his paragraph is pretty self explanatory. He is saying that those who speak English usually come from wealthy families and those whealty families have been raised to treat people from lower caste poorly.

azangru 4y ago
> Maybe you should dust off your reading compression skills, his paragraph is pretty self explanatory Thank you for your suggestion :-) Can you show where this specific point: "...and those whealty families have been raised to treat people from lower caste poorly" is made in his (we are assuming it's a he, aren't we? how bad of us) comment?

throwaway45643 4y ago