6 ms·

While quality of life in Europe is still great, EU GDP share of the world going down is starting to effect European people more (especially now with the proxy w

While quality of life in Europe is still great, EU GDP share of the world going down is starting to effect European people more (especially now with the proxy war between US and Russia). I wish Europeans were a bit more business savy and corporate, and not see businesses as just bad things that are part of life, but of course when I’m in US I see the other extreme where businesses want to extract all value from me all the time, and it gets tiring.

myko 4y ago
> especially now with the proxy war between US and Russia This is not a proxy war between the US and Russia. Ukraine nor Russia started this conflict at the behest or instigation of the US. The US (and NATO, the entire western world really) are supportive of Ukraine but it's important to note that Ukraine is not a puppet of the US and that Putin started this conflict.
- trasz 4y ago
  It could be argued it’s a proxy war between NATO and some… unknown world power, with Russia as a proxy. Although I don’t think Chinese would be able to pull it off.
- whoooooo123 4y ago
  The war is "between" Russia and Ukraine but the US is funding and arming Ukraine because the US wants to hurt Russia. How is that not the dictionary definition of a "proxy war"? Swap the US and Russia and replace "Ukraine" with "North Vietnam" and you have a historical conflict which everyone agrees was a proxy war. How is this different?
  - watwut 4y ago
    EU countries are funding and arming Ukraine too. Baltic states and Poland are the ones pushing the most for support for Ukraine. And obviously, all actual fighting and dying is done by Ukrainians. They are the ones being tortured and oppressed on occupied territories too. If Russia won, all Ukrainians would be oppressed by Russia.
  - foepys 4y ago
    Basically all of Europe is arming Ukraine because Europe knows that if Russia takes Ukraine, Russia will eventually want to annex all other ex-USSR states as well. If not more.
    - m000 4y ago
      > Russia will eventually want to annex all other ex-USSR states as well I don't know how people buy such uninformed BS. First, a lot of ex-USSR states are already NATO members. So, no game. Further, USSR was a political construct. Their whole expansionism was based on that. Russia on the other hand is a nation state. They are not capable of annexing any region where there is no Russian-speaking + Russia-aligned population. Putin knows that very well. As put by people who probably know better [1]: One obvious difference between the Soviet Union and Russia is that the Soviet governing elite embraced Marxism-Leninism and its objective of world revolution. Today's Russia is not a messianic power. [1] https://nationalinterest.org/feature/russia-not-soviet-union-27041 https://nationalinterest.org/feature/russia-not-soviet-union...
      - foepys 4y ago
        Have you looked at a map? You are forgetting about Moldova, which already has Russian military bases "protecting" Russians in a small strip at the border to Ukraine, effectively occupying land. Then you are forgetting about Georgia where Russia fought a war in 2008 resulting in Russia creating South Ossetia on Georgian land. Exactly the thing they now tried to do with Luhansk and Donetsk. Then there is Kazakhstan where Russia did a military intervention to support the government in 2022, this year! Although, Kazakhstan seems to want to sever the ties to Russia now. I have a feeling that you don't know anything about this topic and just read a single article and now feel informed while in reality you were hit by Russian propaganda. The author of the article you posted thinks that NATO made Russia invade Ukraine by expanding to far East, explicitly following Russian talking points.
  - bandyaboot 4y ago
    Is it just the US that’s doing this only to hurt Russia? What about the countries that are facing very real consequences to join them? And the countries that have abandoned their long-standing neutrality in order to do so? Could it actually be that all of these countries including the US just actually find it deeply offensive that Russia has decided it’s ok to invade a country and commit atrocities all so that they can tell a free people that, no, you are not allowed to be a free people.
  - dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
    > because the US wants to hurt Russia You seem to forget Ukraine in this equation entirely, you know, the country that is the victim of Russian aggression including murder of civilians, rape, and theft. They are constantly begging for help to fight the invaders. Is it remotely possible that's why the US is helping for this reason and to stop Russian aggression? Any "hurt" Russia receives is entirely self inflicted. This is a war of their choice.
brabel 4y ago
Quite honestly, if anything, I think we (and I truly mean nearly everyone here) in the EU have far more than necessary to have a decent life and doing anything more "business savy" would not have any positive effect on our lives at all. Yes, maybe we could make a little bit more money by being more business crazy, but what's the point if you get nothing you actually desire in return?
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  This is one of the culture differences between the US and EU for alot of people (though this is changing in the US) Personally I value my "work". That is not to say I value my efforts for my employer which makes this hard to explain. I do not find value is laying around, vacationing, sports, or any other traditional "leisure" activity. I like to work So even when I am not "working" for pay for my employer, I am still working. I am going a personal coding project, or working on my home, or working on my car, or working in some other way. I work... weather it is for pay, for my own personal pleasure.
  - maxwell 4y ago
    https://www.hellahealth.com/blog/wellness/regrets-old-age https://www.hellahealth.com/blog/wellness/regrets-old-age
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      >>Most of their regrets revolved around their family and how they wish relationships, usually either with their children or between their children I am willing to bet, that if you met many of these people in the 40's and 50;'s (where I am today) they would have the same statements. I too sometimes regret I am not closer with family, or have more "friends" but at the same time I do not have the desire to change that reality at all... It is complex psychological problem for me I have always since my teens been a "loner", I do not have the mental stamina to be around people for long periods of time. Once of the reasons I would attracted to computer programming, even when working in a "team" you work alone for large periods of time. To be clear I am not really a introvert or rather I am both an introvert and an extrovert when the situation requires it, I can carry a conversion, I can be "the life the room" but I find it mentally draining and exhausting to the point where if I am at a conference for example, I need a few days completely alone after to decompress. So sure I sometimes regret that was not born with the mental gift of being able form these close continual bonds with people... but at the same time I dont have the desire to change that element of myself... if that makes any sense at all.
watwut 4y ago
Oh please. EU countries have more stakes in that conflict considering some of them would be next to be attacked if Russia won in Ukraine. The Russia is an actual threat for EU countries. Which is why the biggest hawks in that conflict are EU countries.
- unity1001 4y ago
  No they aren't. Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal are staying away from it as much as possible. Many central European countries, the same. This is an Anglosaxon + Germanic project, with the addition of Poland. Its their war. ... There can be no bigger enemy than the country that blew up European pipelines to sink European industry. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-03-09/european-industry-starts-shutting-down-as-energy-prices-soar https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-03-09/european-...
  - m000 4y ago
    I'm not sure how much of a Germany's war is this. From what I gather, if we had any kind of deal to stop the war tomorrow, they would be more than happy and eager to start discussing (energy) business again. Also, Greece is not staying as away as you may think. First EU country to send military supplies to Ukraine. Supplies were complete junk btw, so you can even call it a lose-lose gesture. Worse, the only external country who has a PM stupid enough to say in an interview "we are at war with Russia" [1]. [1] https://www.tovima.gr/2022/09/22/international/mitsotakis-declares-we-are-at-war-with-russia-turkey-no-longer-part-of-western-alliance/ https://www.tovima.gr/2022/09/22/international/mitsotakis-de...
    - unity1001 4y ago
      > I'm not sure how much of a Germany's war is this It definitely is not Germany's war. Various openly-published American think tank papers openly call for German industry's destruction and outline plans for it. One example went viral recently. > if we had any kind of deal to stop the war tomorrow, they would be more than happy and eager to start discussing (energy) business again. Yep, after the US literally went ahead and blew up the pipes when things looked like settling down, many German establishment figures seem to have changed their minds. But it may be too late. Even if repairs start tomorrow and both pipelines open, its unlikely that they will complete before the winter is over. And that will likely castrate German industry. > Also, Greece is not staying as away as you may think. First EU country to send military supplies to Ukraine. Supplies were complete junk Lol, Spain did the same - first it sent a few thousand rifles that were practically remnant of the Spanish Civil War or early WW2. Then it offered to send Leopard tanks IF Germany gave permission - therefore throwing the ball on Germany's court. Of course Germany couldn't allow it, so the tanks were not sent. Then in the 3rd run, when pressured to send artillery shells, they just sent some 150mm shells which may or may not be usable in the equipment that the US gave Ukraine. Greece is FAR ahead of Spain: Currently Europe is STILL buying Russian oil. But it is now 'Greek' oil. As long as you have at most 49% Russian-sourced oil, your oil is not Russian oil. So you can sell as much as you want. Greece had been doing crazy business. It may end up as the country that comes ahead of all others in the crisis. As a very ironic note, Latvia is also selling Russian oil. Shiploads of it. But its 'Latvian oil' since its only 49% Russian. It looks like business does not follow rhetoric.
unity1001 4y ago
> I wish Europeans were a bit more business savy and corporate Seeing how well that worked for the US, no thanks. The only reason European GDP is going down is because of 10-year-long trade war that was started circa 2005 by the US. It started with tariffs back then, moved onto trying to push NAFTA-like 'trade deals' via TTIP etc, and when all failed, they just blew the pipeline. Judging from what was done to Japan with 'Plaza Accords', there is no guilt or responsibility of the targeted country and their people in this. Japanese were and still are the most sacrificing, hardworking workers. And yet, after accepting the terms that the US forced on them with those accords, Japanese economy is still in ruins.
- astrange 4y ago
  The Japanese economy is healthy relative to the rest of the world but it's true that Japanese people are too poor and are not getting better fast enough. But this is mostly because "sacrificing and hardworking" was a dumb thing to set up the country to be. They were worried about people having too much free time so set up a super unproductive structure where every man was in the office 12 hours a day, gets micromanaged, and barely does any real work. Of course, that's an old picture of the country; ~10 years ago when everyone though of Tokyo as a place where kids hung out on the street in cool fashion all day, that's because those kids were unemployed because they weren't willing to become salarymen. And there has been real reform towards productivity since then. Also, Japan’s Phillips Curve looks like Japan. http://www.econ.yale.edu/smith/econ116a/japan.pdf http://www.econ.yale.edu/smith/econ116a/japan.pdf
  - unity1001 4y ago
    > The Japanese economy is healthy relative to the rest of the world It is frozen at the exact size and breadth that US wanted to freeze it. Its a literal economic colony. > But this is mostly because "sacrificing and hardworking" was a dumb thing to set up the country to be It worked until 1991. I very much recommedn reading about the Plaza Accords.
    - astrange 4y ago

myko 4y ago

> especially now with the proxy war between US and Russia This is not a proxy war between the US and Russia. Ukraine nor Russia started this conflict at the behest or instigation of the US. The US (and NATO, the entire western world really) are supportive of Ukraine but it's important to note that Ukraine is not a puppet of the US and that Putin started this conflict.

trasz 4y ago
It could be argued it’s a proxy war between NATO and some… unknown world power, with Russia as a proxy. Although I don’t think Chinese would be able to pull it off.
whoooooo123 4y ago
The war is "between" Russia and Ukraine but the US is funding and arming Ukraine because the US wants to hurt Russia. How is that not the dictionary definition of a "proxy war"? Swap the US and Russia and replace "Ukraine" with "North Vietnam" and you have a historical conflict which everyone agrees was a proxy war. How is this different?
- watwut 4y ago
  EU countries are funding and arming Ukraine too. Baltic states and Poland are the ones pushing the most for support for Ukraine. And obviously, all actual fighting and dying is done by Ukrainians. They are the ones being tortured and oppressed on occupied territories too. If Russia won, all Ukrainians would be oppressed by Russia.
- foepys 4y ago
  Basically all of Europe is arming Ukraine because Europe knows that if Russia takes Ukraine, Russia will eventually want to annex all other ex-USSR states as well. If not more.
  - m000 4y ago
    > Russia will eventually want to annex all other ex-USSR states as well I don't know how people buy such uninformed BS. First, a lot of ex-USSR states are already NATO members. So, no game. Further, USSR was a political construct. Their whole expansionism was based on that. Russia on the other hand is a nation state. They are not capable of annexing any region where there is no Russian-speaking + Russia-aligned population. Putin knows that very well. As put by people who probably know better [1]: One obvious difference between the Soviet Union and Russia is that the Soviet governing elite embraced Marxism-Leninism and its objective of world revolution. Today's Russia is not a messianic power. [1] https://nationalinterest.org/feature/russia-not-soviet-union-27041 https://nationalinterest.org/feature/russia-not-soviet-union...
    - foepys 4y ago
      Have you looked at a map? You are forgetting about Moldova, which already has Russian military bases "protecting" Russians in a small strip at the border to Ukraine, effectively occupying land. Then you are forgetting about Georgia where Russia fought a war in 2008 resulting in Russia creating South Ossetia on Georgian land. Exactly the thing they now tried to do with Luhansk and Donetsk. Then there is Kazakhstan where Russia did a military intervention to support the government in 2022, this year! Although, Kazakhstan seems to want to sever the ties to Russia now. I have a feeling that you don't know anything about this topic and just read a single article and now feel informed while in reality you were hit by Russian propaganda. The author of the article you posted thinks that NATO made Russia invade Ukraine by expanding to far East, explicitly following Russian talking points.
- bandyaboot 4y ago
  Is it just the US that’s doing this only to hurt Russia? What about the countries that are facing very real consequences to join them? And the countries that have abandoned their long-standing neutrality in order to do so? Could it actually be that all of these countries including the US just actually find it deeply offensive that Russia has decided it’s ok to invade a country and commit atrocities all so that they can tell a free people that, no, you are not allowed to be a free people.
- dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
  > because the US wants to hurt Russia You seem to forget Ukraine in this equation entirely, you know, the country that is the victim of Russian aggression including murder of civilians, rape, and theft. They are constantly begging for help to fight the invaders. Is it remotely possible that's why the US is helping for this reason and to stop Russian aggression? Any "hurt" Russia receives is entirely self inflicted. This is a war of their choice.

brabel 4y ago

Quite honestly, if anything, I think we (and I truly mean nearly everyone here) in the EU have far more than necessary to have a decent life and doing anything more "business savy" would not have any positive effect on our lives at all. Yes, maybe we could make a little bit more money by being more business crazy, but what's the point if you get nothing you actually desire in return?

phpisthebest 4y ago
This is one of the culture differences between the US and EU for alot of people (though this is changing in the US) Personally I value my "work". That is not to say I value my efforts for my employer which makes this hard to explain. I do not find value is laying around, vacationing, sports, or any other traditional "leisure" activity. I like to work So even when I am not "working" for pay for my employer, I am still working. I am going a personal coding project, or working on my home, or working on my car, or working in some other way. I work... weather it is for pay, for my own personal pleasure.
- maxwell 4y ago
  https://www.hellahealth.com/blog/wellness/regrets-old-age https://www.hellahealth.com/blog/wellness/regrets-old-age
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    >>Most of their regrets revolved around their family and how they wish relationships, usually either with their children or between their children I am willing to bet, that if you met many of these people in the 40's and 50;'s (where I am today) they would have the same statements. I too sometimes regret I am not closer with family, or have more "friends" but at the same time I do not have the desire to change that reality at all... It is complex psychological problem for me I have always since my teens been a "loner", I do not have the mental stamina to be around people for long periods of time. Once of the reasons I would attracted to computer programming, even when working in a "team" you work alone for large periods of time. To be clear I am not really a introvert or rather I am both an introvert and an extrovert when the situation requires it, I can carry a conversion, I can be "the life the room" but I find it mentally draining and exhausting to the point where if I am at a conference for example, I need a few days completely alone after to decompress. So sure I sometimes regret that was not born with the mental gift of being able form these close continual bonds with people... but at the same time I dont have the desire to change that element of myself... if that makes any sense at all.

watwut 4y ago

Oh please. EU countries have more stakes in that conflict considering some of them would be next to be attacked if Russia won in Ukraine. The Russia is an actual threat for EU countries. Which is why the biggest hawks in that conflict are EU countries.

unity1001 4y ago
No they aren't. Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal are staying away from it as much as possible. Many central European countries, the same. This is an Anglosaxon + Germanic project, with the addition of Poland. Its their war. ... There can be no bigger enemy than the country that blew up European pipelines to sink European industry. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-03-09/european-industry-starts-shutting-down-as-energy-prices-soar https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-03-09/european-...
- m000 4y ago
  I'm not sure how much of a Germany's war is this. From what I gather, if we had any kind of deal to stop the war tomorrow, they would be more than happy and eager to start discussing (energy) business again. Also, Greece is not staying as away as you may think. First EU country to send military supplies to Ukraine. Supplies were complete junk btw, so you can even call it a lose-lose gesture. Worse, the only external country who has a PM stupid enough to say in an interview "we are at war with Russia" [1]. [1] https://www.tovima.gr/2022/09/22/international/mitsotakis-declares-we-are-at-war-with-russia-turkey-no-longer-part-of-western-alliance/ https://www.tovima.gr/2022/09/22/international/mitsotakis-de...
  - unity1001 4y ago
    > I'm not sure how much of a Germany's war is this It definitely is not Germany's war. Various openly-published American think tank papers openly call for German industry's destruction and outline plans for it. One example went viral recently. > if we had any kind of deal to stop the war tomorrow, they would be more than happy and eager to start discussing (energy) business again. Yep, after the US literally went ahead and blew up the pipes when things looked like settling down, many German establishment figures seem to have changed their minds. But it may be too late. Even if repairs start tomorrow and both pipelines open, its unlikely that they will complete before the winter is over. And that will likely castrate German industry. > Also, Greece is not staying as away as you may think. First EU country to send military supplies to Ukraine. Supplies were complete junk Lol, Spain did the same - first it sent a few thousand rifles that were practically remnant of the Spanish Civil War or early WW2. Then it offered to send Leopard tanks IF Germany gave permission - therefore throwing the ball on Germany's court. Of course Germany couldn't allow it, so the tanks were not sent. Then in the 3rd run, when pressured to send artillery shells, they just sent some 150mm shells which may or may not be usable in the equipment that the US gave Ukraine. Greece is FAR ahead of Spain: Currently Europe is STILL buying Russian oil. But it is now 'Greek' oil. As long as you have at most 49% Russian-sourced oil, your oil is not Russian oil. So you can sell as much as you want. Greece had been doing crazy business. It may end up as the country that comes ahead of all others in the crisis. As a very ironic note, Latvia is also selling Russian oil. Shiploads of it. But its 'Latvian oil' since its only 49% Russian. It looks like business does not follow rhetoric.

unity1001 4y ago

> I wish Europeans were a bit more business savy and corporate Seeing how well that worked for the US, no thanks. The only reason European GDP is going down is because of 10-year-long trade war that was started circa 2005 by the US. It started with tariffs back then, moved onto trying to push NAFTA-like 'trade deals' via TTIP etc, and when all failed, they just blew the pipeline. Judging from what was done to Japan with 'Plaza Accords', there is no guilt or responsibility of the targeted country and their people in this. Japanese were and still are the most sacrificing, hardworking workers. And yet, after accepting the terms that the US forced on them with those accords, Japanese economy is still in ruins.

astrange 4y ago
The Japanese economy is healthy relative to the rest of the world but it's true that Japanese people are too poor and are not getting better fast enough. But this is mostly because "sacrificing and hardworking" was a dumb thing to set up the country to be. They were worried about people having too much free time so set up a super unproductive structure where every man was in the office 12 hours a day, gets micromanaged, and barely does any real work. Of course, that's an old picture of the country; ~10 years ago when everyone though of Tokyo as a place where kids hung out on the street in cool fashion all day, that's because those kids were unemployed because they weren't willing to become salarymen. And there has been real reform towards productivity since then. Also, Japan’s Phillips Curve looks like Japan. http://www.econ.yale.edu/smith/econ116a/japan.pdf http://www.econ.yale.edu/smith/econ116a/japan.pdf
- unity1001 4y ago
  > The Japanese economy is healthy relative to the rest of the world It is frozen at the exact size and breadth that US wanted to freeze it. Its a literal economic colony. > But this is mostly because "sacrificing and hardworking" was a dumb thing to set up the country to be It worked until 1991. I very much recommedn reading about the Plaza Accords.
  - astrange 4y ago