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he was ordered to take part in a virtual training period called a "Corrective Action Program." This is the sort of name given to processes uses when an employe
by ineedasername 4y ago
he was ordered to take part in a virtual training period called a "Corrective Action Program."
This is the sort of name given to processes uses when an employee is already performing below expectations. (Where I work it’s a more euphemistic Performance Improvement). If that’s the case here then his firing was a bit less sudden than it appears. Though the entire monitoring process seems draconian regardless.
- blub 4y agoPIPs are a tool for managing out employees that don’t perform well or don’t yield to often abusive company demands like e.g. overtime or pissed of somebody in management or connected to management.
- tyingq 4y agoAlso potentially just the unlucky selected person for a forced rank/yank exercise when everyone is doing their job, but some percentage is selected to oust.
- cjbgkagh 4y agoI’ve always called them sacrificial lambs.
- phpisthebest 4y agoDepends on the company but they are commonly used to ensure managers are not just firing someone that they are "pissed off" at, people are cynical about them but they are designed to ensure managers have to document the poor performance, and have notified the employee they are under performing... I have seen companies that lack this process and witnessed employees getting very positive feedback from managers even in performance reviews, only to be shell shocked with a termination for poor performance. Given the option to have a PiP process or not I would rather have one. I have seen employees go on a PIP and then improve their way out of it. I have seen them be used as a tool to justify termination, and in one case the PIP ended up revealing fraud. I think the point is, if a company is going to abuse employee, that will happen with or with out a PIP, but even with abusive management having that process IMO is better than not
- biztos 4y agoInteresting factoid from Europe: at least in Germany, you are effectively unhirable if you are in a PiP. You actually have to warrant that you are not, before any company of any size will consider hiring you, and of course lying about that would be a firing offense. I get the logic, but as an American I was surprised… I was never PiPed but I too would have assumed it was better than the alternative. Not always!
- sveme 4y agoI worked for small and large companies, both German and American, never has anyone asked me whether I had been in a PIP. Have never even encountered something like this in Germany.
- phpisthebest 4y agoInteresting, in most states in the US it would be illegal for an employer to reveal to another employer that the employee was on a PiP, I am surprised that is allowed in the EU with all the privacy laws. The US has lots of anti-black listing laws in almost every state that would make something like that very very illegal
- nibbleshifter 4y agoIts also not legal in Germany, in fact, its pretty impossible to legally give a bad reference. HR departments have a workaround though - instead of a bad reference, they will simply confirm that yes, you worked there. Nothing else.
- tharkun__ 4y agoAre reference letters no longer done in Germany? When I was there that was how this was done. Basically you would always get a reference letter when ending employment. The reference letter's language always sounds good, as in not giving a bad reference. However, a reference letter that states things like "employee X delivered his tasks on time and to the satisfaction of work standards" basically means that he's a slacker that does mediocre work at best. It has to say something like "We are ultimately saddened for employee X leaving because he always delivered his work early and to the highest standard thinkable". These are bad made-up English language examples to show the difference in language but there's basically template language HR departments use for this.
- lloydatkinson 4y agoI’ve never ever ever seen a PIP used in a positive way. It’s almost always been a way for petty toxic management that resented an employee not tolerating an abusive environment.
- tartoran 4y agoOf course PIP got a huge potential to be abused, it’s like a weapon in the hands of management. I’ve never been under a PIP but if I were I’d urgently look for work.
- nibbleshifter 4y agoThat's what I did - once I was put on a PIP, I knew it was time to jump before I was pushed.
- Firmwarrior 4y agoMan, it's so frustrating. I just wanted to work hard, do a good job, and make a comfortable living.. but I got repeatedly screwed over by corporate politics several levels above me at my first couple of tech jobs after college. I was forced into learning how to play corporate politics just to stay employed, and now I make 6x as much money and work maybe 1/3rd as much as I used to. If these companies weren't comprised of weasels and wannabe tyrants, I think everyone would be a lot better off. I guess being a manipulative, greedy asshole is just human nature though.
- thelittleone 4y agoI got asked if I'd be willing to take a guy on pip onto my team. The guy was senior to me when I started but he languished a bit so I was now senior. He was good technically but terrible with internal politics. It was a bit of an adjustment but we worked hard and managed a turn around. He was surprised and thankful for the genuine interest in his career and well being. He never became an A player, but he stayed on a few more years and stock splits and we remain in contact 15 years later.
- nibbleshifter 4y agoLast time I got put on a PIP was for refusing an entirely unreasonable request to be on call, and leaving my work phone at home during that period. I started making plans to resign pretty soon after being put on the PIP.
- denton-scratch 4y agoI dunno, can't you just say "Dude, if you put me on the PIP, I'll have trouble leaving. Since what you're proposing amounts to disciplinary measures, I'll be quitting anyway; so why make it harder for me to get a new job?" The dismissal process for underperformance here (UK) requires the employer to give warnings: one verbal, and two written, I think. The employer is also expected to help the employee meet the performance target. The PIP sounds like a checklist version of that help - it's not meant to help the employee, it's meant to hustle along the dismissal process. I'd take a job flipping burgers, rather than work for a boss that put me on a PIP.
- Kranar 4y agoQuitting and getting terminated have very different consequences. Quitting does not entitle you to EI and could jeopardize severance/termination pay. To lose those benefits due to termination the termination must be for cause, which comes with a very high standard that an employer is exclusively required to justify.
- skeeter2020 4y agoPIPs rarely work but it's the legal system that awards poor performers the equivalent of a year of salary when they're fired that makes them a requirement in the first place.
- tallanvor 4y agoThis completely depends on the company. Where I work, PIPs really are designed to give extra structure to the people on them as to what is expected of them and they're designed to be achievable by the average employee without working extra hours. Of course, they're also private, so you only know someone has been on one if they choose to share that information.
- memcg 4y agoThe article also states that he was "telemarketing worker" without much detail about his job duties. Was the company already recording his screen and voice (if applicable) interactions with customers?
- s1artibartfast 4y agoI suspect the article meant teleworking
- memcg 4y agoMe too, but it makes a big difference. Recording sales or support interactions with customers is common. The article also mentioned "commission" as part of his compensation which may be related to a sales function.
- ashaikh 4y agoThe article mentions he was a remote worker up front. I think his job was telemarketing.
- s1artibartfast 4y agoI wonder if they were a remote sales or marketing rep. I'm not sure why a software development Company would have an employee doing telemarketing, at least not the unsolicited direct to consumer type we use the term for in the US. Maybe this is a connotation issue.
- simonh 4y agoSoftware companies still need to sell stuff much of which can be remote, it looks like this local branch was a sales operation to the Dutch market.
- s1artibartfast 4y agoI don't know if you're from the US or not, but in the US the term telemarketer usually refers to someone that makes cold calls to private residences. It is usually low paid work and usually outsourced to countries with cheap labor.
- licebmi__at__ 4y agoWell, I worked on a company with a performance program (I can really remember the exact euphemism), in which all new employees were supposed to take part when joining, and then if marked as low performer go through it again, with a neat addition... random employees were also selected to go through it again just because.
- pridkett 4y agoThat’s not that terrible idea - it removes some of the stigma and potentially helps ensure the program provides value rather than just being a checkbox on the way to termination.
- formerkrogemp 4y agoIt's still a checkbox used during termination.
- trynewideas 4y agoI also don't see how going through it reduces the stigma. The stigma exists _because_ of the experience, not the unfamiliarity of it. For instance, does the experience of going through US airport security ever reduce the stigma of it?
- kweingar 4y ago> does the experience of going through US airport security ever reduce the stigma of it? Some people feel degraded when they go through airport security, but it doesn’t carry a stigma. Nobody’s judging you for going through security so you can fly.
- kube-system 4y agoWhen you go through TSA, nobody thinks “oh, that person must be a terrorist because the TSA is screening them”. Because the TSA screens everyone. When someone is on a PIP, the expectation is “that person is about to get fired” This is the stigma we’re talking about.
- maxerickson 4y ago"Corrective action" is quality system jargon.