7 ms·

Researchers 'speak' to dolphins in their own language

157 points by auxbuss 15y ago

mise 15y ago
To portray imagined objects to other dolphins, are they suggesting that the dolphin can imitate the 'sound echo' directly from their vocal clicks? Therefore their clicks would have two functions: to make echos reflect from objects around them, and to imitate those echos later on?
- PerryCox 15y ago
  That was my understanding of it, but I could be completely wrong.
  - bmuon 15y ago
    +1 but the article isn't very clear about it
- bane 15y ago
  In the Uplift universe (David Brin), dolphins are regularly able to build sonic pictures for other dolphins as a way to communicate, or even as a strategy when fighting each other. Not sure if those ideas came from then current research into dolphins, or if Brin took some artistic liberties and came up with them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uplift_Universe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uplift_Universe
- jarin 15y ago
  If it's true, then it's essentially image-based telepathic communication.
- mirkules 15y ago
  That's interesting. From what I understood of the article, to portray an existing object, they emit a constant sound, and the shape of the object modifies the sound which makes a unique sound (which is then transformed into an image by the receiving dolphin). Therefore, to imagine an object they have to: 1) have the ability to create unique shape-sounds with their vocal clicks and 2a) had to have either seen/heard the shape before, OR 2b) have the ability to imagine what an imaginary object would sound like. If research shows the way of conveying imaginary objects is 2a, that would mean dolphins are physically unable to convey abstract ideas (note: this wouldn't completely rule out abstraction, just the communication of it). If it's 2b, and they can communicate abstract concepts... that would be a monumentally profound discovery.
rms 15y ago
This seems to be the original source: I emailed the researcher and asked him to share the full results. http://www.speakdolphin.com/ResearchItems.cfm?ID=20 http://www.speakdolphin.com/ResearchItems.cfm?ID=20
- Figs 15y ago
  Dolphins in two separate research centers understood the words, presenting convincing evidence that dolphins employ a universal sono-pictorial language of communication. Hmm... I would have assumed that interpreting dolphin sounds as pictures is the first thing you'd try after realizing they can echolocate... Is this really the first time that's been explored? Or is it just that no one's been able to figure out how to reconstruct an image properly from dolphin clicks, but it was already a widely suspected possibility for a long time? (I'm not really up to date with dolphin research, unfortunately.) If they're right about this line of reasoning, then I wouldn't be surprised at all if they come back and point out an animation structure soon (akin to sound detection of a moving object over time) -- and if that's the case, I'd bet you that it isn't "universal", and that different groups of dolphins will have different variants in how they communicate more complex concepts. For example, one group might give an animation of a dolphin swimming around something in one direction a meaning that a different group might disagree with. Another sort of animation that might be interesting to look for would be a change in the composition/texture of an object (e.g. animation of dolphin turning to stone, or stone turning into dolphin or something like that). It seems reasonable to me that even if you communicate in animated 3d images, you'd probably still have to have some less literal meanings too... and the sorts of things you could represent with something like that could get pretty complex, actually.
  - epicureanideal 15y ago
    Hopefully the depopulation of the dolphin species (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin_drive_hunting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin_drive_hunting) has not caused significant loss of any complex language developed over time. [In response to responder: Actually I think developing complex language with something like this would be relatively easy. With human language we can't just show a series of events with our words, people need to experience the things with us and then we develop common words to describe them again later. With their system of communication it seems that they could describe pretty much anything they'd find notable and also easily abstract things by just making their clicks less specific or by blending a few specific examples as a form of abstraction. Actually I'd bet on blending first, maybe even a literal superposition of all the possibilities or several of them. Also they might be able to communicate by acting things out physically while they are sounding things out. The combination could be pretty powerful for expression.]
jackgavigan 15y ago
Let's hope they figure out the rest of the dolphins' vocabulary before they tell us "So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish!"
todayiamme 15y ago
I don't intend this as an ad hominem, but is there any independent verification of this research? It might just be me, but it's hard not to be skeptical given that that the website has a banner declaring a campaign to end "chemtrails" and its sidebar is devoted to article topics such as "Ancient Aliens".
- rms 15y ago
  I linked to the original source below, which is a little woo-ey in spirit, but seems sincere, at least. I agree it's unfortunate that this isn't already wrapped in the language of science and academia, but if these results are true that should happen well within the next decade. I think the point of skepticism or thing to investigate is the CymaScope -- where there is room to falsify these results, it is via that device. http://www.cymascope.com/cetacean.html http://www.cymascope.com/cetacean.html
  - Figs 15y ago
    http://www.cymascope.com/soundsfun.html http://www.cymascope.com/soundsfun.html Take a look at the second video. It seems that they're using something like the resonance plate here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf0t4qIVWF4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf0t4qIVWF4 (Wikipedia suggests they're named Chladni plates? I've seen them before in a physics class, but I don't know if that's really their proper name or not. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Chladni http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Chladni ) Edit: I didn't notice it before, but they actually demonstrate the same sort of device further down on the page, also calling it a 'Chladni plate'
  - todayiamme 15y ago
    As Figs [1], jgeralnik, and CWuestefeld [2] have pointed out there might also be a huge problem in their methodology. Let's say that we have created an immersive environment for a mouse, so that we can replay what the mouse would see if it saw a piece of cheese similar to the way they've played back that sonar ping. If the mouse starts running towards it/"identifies" it, would that mean the mouse has developed a complex visual language? No, it would just mean that the mouse has seen the cheese! Unless they have conclusive proof that a dolphin directly sends a pre-modulated imprint of the object it just revealed, then their experiment is probably making a similar mistake somewhere or the other. I think that there is a better way to design this experiment. One of the better ways to conclusively test this hypothesis would be to teach a dolphin tool use to get food and see if it can teach others to do the same. To ensure that simple imitation isn't going on, we could keep a hydrophone immersed for the entire duration and continually record what's happening. If other dolphins learn how to use the tool, then I would move on to the next step and see if they can work together in teams. If they display co-ordination then we would have conclusive proof of language use. Has anyone ever done rigorous research like this? [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3315023 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3315023 [2] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3314522 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3314522
jgeralnik 15y ago
They reflected sounds off of objects and played them back. This is not a language, that's how echolocation works!
- CWuestefeld 15y ago
  This is how I read it, too. It sounds like they showed the dolphin a picture, just using an auditory representation rather than graphical. Then the dolphin pointed to the depicted object. I'm pretty sure that a human baby, without any language skills, could do the same if the depiction were graphical. It seems to me that they've found out something about the dolphin perceptual system. This is interesting, but I don't see what it has to do with language.
  - saulrh 15y ago
    The trick is that they've observed the dolphins doing the same thing. We've just demonstrated that they can coherently transfer nouns. That's a big deal.
    - CWuestefeld 15y ago
      I agree that it's interesting. I just don't see that it's language. Consider this [1] article on language, discussing the properties of language. It seems that what has been discovered fails this in at least two ways. We haven't demonstrated, or even claimed, any sort of grammar; and what's being communicated isn't symbolic, but directly representational. - - QUOTE - - Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also contain a grammar, or system of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. While a set of symbols may be used for expression or communication, it is primitive and relatively unexpressive, because there are no clear or regular relationships between the symbols. Because a language also has a grammar, it can manipulate its symbols to express clear and regular relationships between them. ... Another important property of language is the arbitrariness of the symbols. Any symbol can be mapped onto any concept (or even onto one of the rules of the grammar). For instance, there is nothing about the Spanish word nada itself that forces Spanish speakers to use it to mean nothing. That is the meaning all Spanish speakers have memorized for that sound pattern. But for Croatian speakers nada means hope. - - END QUOTE - - [1] http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Language#Properties_of_language http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Language#Properties_of_lang...
blindhippo 15y ago
Darwin love Bridger
itmag 15y ago
Uplifting, anyone? Pump the 'phins full of nootropics and start teaching them useful stuff :)
jaimefournier 15y ago
Now to setup buoys around Japanese fishing grounds that echo "Danger!"
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
jaimefournier 15y ago
Now to setup buoys around Japanese fishing grounds that echo "Danger!"
jamesbritt 15y ago
Interesting. Dupe: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3312324 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3312324

157 points by auxbuss 15y ago

mise 15y ago

To portray imagined objects to other dolphins, are they suggesting that the dolphin can imitate the 'sound echo' directly from their vocal clicks? Therefore their clicks would have two functions: to make echos reflect from objects around them, and to imitate those echos later on?

PerryCox 15y ago
That was my understanding of it, but I could be completely wrong.
- bmuon 15y ago
  +1 but the article isn't very clear about it
bane 15y ago
In the Uplift universe (David Brin), dolphins are regularly able to build sonic pictures for other dolphins as a way to communicate, or even as a strategy when fighting each other. Not sure if those ideas came from then current research into dolphins, or if Brin took some artistic liberties and came up with them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uplift_Universe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uplift_Universe
jarin 15y ago
If it's true, then it's essentially image-based telepathic communication.
mirkules 15y ago
That's interesting. From what I understood of the article, to portray an existing object, they emit a constant sound, and the shape of the object modifies the sound which makes a unique sound (which is then transformed into an image by the receiving dolphin). Therefore, to imagine an object they have to: 1) have the ability to create unique shape-sounds with their vocal clicks and 2a) had to have either seen/heard the shape before, OR 2b) have the ability to imagine what an imaginary object would sound like. If research shows the way of conveying imaginary objects is 2a, that would mean dolphins are physically unable to convey abstract ideas (note: this wouldn't completely rule out abstraction, just the communication of it). If it's 2b, and they can communicate abstract concepts... that would be a monumentally profound discovery.

rms 15y ago

This seems to be the original source: I emailed the researcher and asked him to share the full results. http://www.speakdolphin.com/ResearchItems.cfm?ID=20 http://www.speakdolphin.com/ResearchItems.cfm?ID=20

Figs 15y ago
Dolphins in two separate research centers understood the words, presenting convincing evidence that dolphins employ a universal sono-pictorial language of communication. Hmm... I would have assumed that interpreting dolphin sounds as pictures is the first thing you'd try after realizing they can echolocate... Is this really the first time that's been explored? Or is it just that no one's been able to figure out how to reconstruct an image properly from dolphin clicks, but it was already a widely suspected possibility for a long time? (I'm not really up to date with dolphin research, unfortunately.) If they're right about this line of reasoning, then I wouldn't be surprised at all if they come back and point out an animation structure soon (akin to sound detection of a moving object over time) -- and if that's the case, I'd bet you that it isn't "universal", and that different groups of dolphins will have different variants in how they communicate more complex concepts. For example, one group might give an animation of a dolphin swimming around something in one direction a meaning that a different group might disagree with. Another sort of animation that might be interesting to look for would be a change in the composition/texture of an object (e.g. animation of dolphin turning to stone, or stone turning into dolphin or something like that). It seems reasonable to me that even if you communicate in animated 3d images, you'd probably still have to have some less literal meanings too... and the sorts of things you could represent with something like that could get pretty complex, actually.
- epicureanideal 15y ago
  Hopefully the depopulation of the dolphin species (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin_drive_hunting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin_drive_hunting) has not caused significant loss of any complex language developed over time. [In response to responder: Actually I think developing complex language with something like this would be relatively easy. With human language we can't just show a series of events with our words, people need to experience the things with us and then we develop common words to describe them again later. With their system of communication it seems that they could describe pretty much anything they'd find notable and also easily abstract things by just making their clicks less specific or by blending a few specific examples as a form of abstraction. Actually I'd bet on blending first, maybe even a literal superposition of all the possibilities or several of them. Also they might be able to communicate by acting things out physically while they are sounding things out. The combination could be pretty powerful for expression.]

jackgavigan 15y ago

Let's hope they figure out the rest of the dolphins' vocabulary before they tell us "So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish!"

todayiamme 15y ago

I don't intend this as an ad hominem, but is there any independent verification of this research? It might just be me, but it's hard not to be skeptical given that that the website has a banner declaring a campaign to end "chemtrails" and its sidebar is devoted to article topics such as "Ancient Aliens".

rms 15y ago
I linked to the original source below, which is a little woo-ey in spirit, but seems sincere, at least. I agree it's unfortunate that this isn't already wrapped in the language of science and academia, but if these results are true that should happen well within the next decade. I think the point of skepticism or thing to investigate is the CymaScope -- where there is room to falsify these results, it is via that device. http://www.cymascope.com/cetacean.html http://www.cymascope.com/cetacean.html
- Figs 15y ago
  http://www.cymascope.com/soundsfun.html http://www.cymascope.com/soundsfun.html Take a look at the second video. It seems that they're using something like the resonance plate here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf0t4qIVWF4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf0t4qIVWF4 (Wikipedia suggests they're named Chladni plates? I've seen them before in a physics class, but I don't know if that's really their proper name or not. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Chladni http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Chladni ) Edit: I didn't notice it before, but they actually demonstrate the same sort of device further down on the page, also calling it a 'Chladni plate'
- todayiamme 15y ago
  As Figs [1], jgeralnik, and CWuestefeld [2] have pointed out there might also be a huge problem in their methodology. Let's say that we have created an immersive environment for a mouse, so that we can replay what the mouse would see if it saw a piece of cheese similar to the way they've played back that sonar ping. If the mouse starts running towards it/"identifies" it, would that mean the mouse has developed a complex visual language? No, it would just mean that the mouse has seen the cheese! Unless they have conclusive proof that a dolphin directly sends a pre-modulated imprint of the object it just revealed, then their experiment is probably making a similar mistake somewhere or the other. I think that there is a better way to design this experiment. One of the better ways to conclusively test this hypothesis would be to teach a dolphin tool use to get food and see if it can teach others to do the same. To ensure that simple imitation isn't going on, we could keep a hydrophone immersed for the entire duration and continually record what's happening. If other dolphins learn how to use the tool, then I would move on to the next step and see if they can work together in teams. If they display co-ordination then we would have conclusive proof of language use. Has anyone ever done rigorous research like this? [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3315023 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3315023 [2] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3314522 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3314522

jgeralnik 15y ago

They reflected sounds off of objects and played them back. This is not a language, that's how echolocation works!

CWuestefeld 15y ago
This is how I read it, too. It sounds like they showed the dolphin a picture, just using an auditory representation rather than graphical. Then the dolphin pointed to the depicted object. I'm pretty sure that a human baby, without any language skills, could do the same if the depiction were graphical. It seems to me that they've found out something about the dolphin perceptual system. This is interesting, but I don't see what it has to do with language.
- saulrh 15y ago
  The trick is that they've observed the dolphins doing the same thing. We've just demonstrated that they can coherently transfer nouns. That's a big deal.
  - CWuestefeld 15y ago
    I agree that it's interesting. I just don't see that it's language. Consider this [1] article on language, discussing the properties of language. It seems that what has been discovered fails this in at least two ways. We haven't demonstrated, or even claimed, any sort of grammar; and what's being communicated isn't symbolic, but directly representational. - - QUOTE - - Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also contain a grammar, or system of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. While a set of symbols may be used for expression or communication, it is primitive and relatively unexpressive, because there are no clear or regular relationships between the symbols. Because a language also has a grammar, it can manipulate its symbols to express clear and regular relationships between them. ... Another important property of language is the arbitrariness of the symbols. Any symbol can be mapped onto any concept (or even onto one of the rules of the grammar). For instance, there is nothing about the Spanish word nada itself that forces Spanish speakers to use it to mean nothing. That is the meaning all Spanish speakers have memorized for that sound pattern. But for Croatian speakers nada means hope. - - END QUOTE - - [1] http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Language#Properties_of_language http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Language#Properties_of_lang...

blindhippo 15y ago

Darwin love Bridger

itmag 15y ago

Uplifting, anyone? Pump the 'phins full of nootropics and start teaching them useful stuff :)

jaimefournier 15y ago

Now to setup buoys around Japanese fishing grounds that echo "Danger!"

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

jaimefournier 15y ago

Now to setup buoys around Japanese fishing grounds that echo "Danger!"

jamesbritt 15y ago

Interesting. Dupe: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3312324 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3312324