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> It's similar with the low quality "drone" footage from the Uyghurs "camps Multiple news organizations have published high quality satellite photos of the Chi

> It's similar with the low quality "drone" footage from the Uyghurs "camps Multiple news organizations have published high quality satellite photos of the Chinese concentration camps for ethnic minorities and Muslims, published the tenders for their construction and interviewed both victims and former jailers who have fled the country. Chinese officials on record boast about the 100s of thousands they have imprisoned or send to prison like factories across the country and the children they have separated from their parents for "re-education". Would you have us all believe this is an elaborate "MI6" conspiracy?

Kukumber 4y ago
Do you remember when chinese were only able to give 1 single birth? That policy never applied to ethnic groups, so the idea that the chinese government is trying to imprison ethnic groups to "re-educate" them is hard to believe Concerning the MI6 story, it's not a conspiracy, when you share that kind of classified, military, materials with the public, your intent is not the truth, it's always manipulation, specially when the videos are always blurry, in the age of HD content, it's kinda fishy, maybe they want to obfuscate the imperfections, it gives me similar Colin Powell vibes https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/colin-powell-u-n-speech-was-a-great-intelligence-failure/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/colin-powell-u-n-...
- haswell 4y ago
  > That policy never applied to ethnic groups, so the idea that the chinese government is trying to imprison ethnic groups to "re-educate" them is hard to believe I’m trying to understand this paragraph. In your mind, in what way does the one child policy make any of this hard to believe? How does that policy change our understanding of what’s going on in these camps?
  - Kukumber 4y ago
    If they were against ethnic groups, as the current western propaganda wants us to believe, they would have applied that policy so they'd have less of that "problematic ethnic group" They didn't, which mean they are fine having ethnic groups The west is pushing this propaganda because it's a known fact that the US want to split the Chinese territory (Tibetan, Uighurs, Taiwanese) (same with Russia btw) For the same reason they now, publicly announced, want to hinder China's development https://www.channelnewsasia.com/asia/china-lashes-out-latest-us-export-controls-chips-2996901 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/asia/china-lashes-out-latest...
    - haswell 4y ago
      > They didn't, which mean they are fine having ethnic groups This is a gigantic leap to a conclusion that does not logically follow the premise, and ignores evidence that requires no such leaps. I guess it was the inevitable that the Chinese propaganda machine would make its way to HN.
      - Kukumber 4y ago
        haswell 4y ago
        If you’re only aware of blurry videos on Twitter, I’d recommend you do a deeper dive and look at additional reporting on this matter. You don’t have to look very far [0] (just a single example). At least you acknowledge the gigantic leap in your argument. How does one go through the ascension process? - [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/extra/85qihtvw6e/the-faces-from-chinas-uyghur-detention-camps https://www.bbc.com/news/extra/85qihtvw6e/the-faces-from-chi...
        MickerNews 4y ago
        haswell 4y ago
        > These images are all fake, and obviously so. As a photographer, what about these images is obviously fake? > All the eyes are at an identical pitch Which is evidence of what? Generally, when booking photos are taken, the subject is asked to look at a single spot to preserve consistency and identifiability. > when you go to the source you'll find many of them wearing exactly the same clothes, with exactly the same creases. I find it very unsurprising that people in a prison situation are wearing the same clothes. All of my clothing is also creased in the same places, but this is no big conspiracy, there are just popular ways of folding clothes… I’m always interested in getting the whole story, but you’re going to need to share a less sketchy link…
- fritztastic 4y ago
  None of what you mention presents plausible evidence of your statement implying that CIA/MI6 have monolithic control over information regarding the camps. Not to say they aren't manipulating information or have no involvement, but none of the evidence you present backs up your claim. Enforcing the birth of children and sending people to camps are two very different issues. The content not being HD could be explained by them using less detectable drones. I would imagine that flying a military or HD drone over sovereign territory would be dangerous and an act of aggression, so it's within the realm of belief that someone, perhaps covertly, used a drone less likely to draw suspicion, not easily detectable or traceable to foreign interests. Moreover if you watch the Frontline (the same source you cited above) documentaries about Iraq, you'll find they present people working in intelligence at the time explicitly told officials Zarqawi was sketchy and that the information he presented was not supported by the intel they had. I'm not saying it's a certainty without doubt that the camps are everything what some sources allege them to be, but it's also not certain without a doubt that they aren't.
jdmonty 4y ago
Source? Actually, low effort agit prop that could actually be done by NGOs. Moral grand standing by US is so tiresome… it’s an Psyop color revolution otherwise we’d see Saudi protests etc.
- Retric 4y ago
  China has openly acknowledged these camps, going so far has to request the UN acknowledge their sovereignty: “The Chinese government officially legalized re-education camps in Xinjiang in October 2018.[422] Prior to that, when international media had asked about the re-education camps, China's Ministry of Foreign Affairs said that they have not heard of this situation.[423] On 12 August 2018, a Chinese state-run tabloid, Global Times, defended the crackdown in Xinjiang after a U.N. anti-discrimination committee raised concerns over China's treatment of Uyghurs. According to the Global Times, China prevented Xinjiang from becoming 'China's Syria' or 'China's Libya', and local authorities' policies saved countless lives and avoided a 'great tragedy'.[424][425] On 21 August 2018, Liu Xiaoming, the Ambassador of China to the United Kingdom, wrote an article in response to a Financial Times report entitled "Crackdown in Xinjiang: Where have all the people gone?".[432] Liu's response said: "The education and training measures taken by the local government of Xinjiang have not only effectively prevented the infiltration of religious extremism and helped those lost in extremist ideas to find their way back, but also provided them with employment training in order to build a better life."[433] In September 2020, amid condemnation from Western countries, Chinese paramount leader Xi Jinping acclaimed the success of his policies in Xinjiang in a 2-day conference expected to set the country's policy for the next years.[445] The Chinese government published a white paper defending its "vocational training centers," claiming that the regional government organised 'employment-oriented training' and labour skills for 1.29 million workers a year from 2014 to 2019.[446]“ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps
  - MickerNews 4y ago
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MickerNews 4y ago
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- xwolfi 4y ago
  I live in China, I think if our asses were so clean, we could all go there and even visit these reform camps they said they built and are not at all cruel and inhumane. You can say the foreigners exagerate, sure they do, with their sudden newfound love for muslim people even the worst ayatollahs of the world cant seem to express, but hum, it's not like there's no fire behind all this smoke... However I've always been careful not to call it a genocide: for me we must prove the mass deaths first.
  - philliphaydon 4y ago
    Genocide doesn't mean mass killing. Just to cite Wikipedia... > In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such." These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly.
    - space_fountain 4y ago
      Well, but that isn’t the definition tend to think of right? They do think mass killing, it’s part of why the word has such power. If it was merely portrayed as the Chinese working to forcibly convert Muslims a lot of the US would shrug and say that seems good
- space_fountain 4y ago
  I can tell you believe this, and I do think it seems possible to me the west over plays it’s hand. Especially the genocide label, but your evidence isn’t exactly strong. You make it sound like Adrian Zenz is a cultist when as far as I can tell he’s just a passionate critic. As to the photos being deepfaked, I only look at a handful. One did look a bit suspicious, none of the others did, and none of them have that vanilla this person isn’t real type look. I also see the fact that China restricts travel to the region as compelling evidence of foul play even if when they occasionally do take people on tours they don’t find anything. Like you do know the Nazis produced lovely videos of concentration camps full have happy people just living out the war or whatever, China is hiding something. My fairly uninformed guess (and tell me if this seems right to you) is that what’s going on is merely on the level of what the US did to American Indians what with the boarding schools and the forced removal of their children with maybe a touch of forced labor on the side for spice. But it’s always worth remembering on this subject, only one of these countries tries to have the state capacity to squash dissent so yes I am a bit more skeptical of what their mouth pieces have to tell the world
MickerNews 4y ago
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- joemazerino 4y ago
  I stopped when you said "sinophobes". It is classic CCP counter-intel to describe all of it's enemies as racist. Why are you here on a thread about Iran anyways?
  - MickerNews 4y ago
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  - pessimizer 4y ago

Kukumber 4y ago

Do you remember when chinese were only able to give 1 single birth? That policy never applied to ethnic groups, so the idea that the chinese government is trying to imprison ethnic groups to "re-educate" them is hard to believe Concerning the MI6 story, it's not a conspiracy, when you share that kind of classified, military, materials with the public, your intent is not the truth, it's always manipulation, specially when the videos are always blurry, in the age of HD content, it's kinda fishy, maybe they want to obfuscate the imperfections, it gives me similar Colin Powell vibes https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/colin-powell-u-n-speech-was-a-great-intelligence-failure/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/colin-powell-u-n-...

haswell 4y ago
> That policy never applied to ethnic groups, so the idea that the chinese government is trying to imprison ethnic groups to "re-educate" them is hard to believe I’m trying to understand this paragraph. In your mind, in what way does the one child policy make any of this hard to believe? How does that policy change our understanding of what’s going on in these camps?
- Kukumber 4y ago
  If they were against ethnic groups, as the current western propaganda wants us to believe, they would have applied that policy so they'd have less of that "problematic ethnic group" They didn't, which mean they are fine having ethnic groups The west is pushing this propaganda because it's a known fact that the US want to split the Chinese territory (Tibetan, Uighurs, Taiwanese) (same with Russia btw) For the same reason they now, publicly announced, want to hinder China's development https://www.channelnewsasia.com/asia/china-lashes-out-latest-us-export-controls-chips-2996901 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/asia/china-lashes-out-latest...
  - haswell 4y ago
    > They didn't, which mean they are fine having ethnic groups This is a gigantic leap to a conclusion that does not logically follow the premise, and ignores evidence that requires no such leaps. I guess it was the inevitable that the Chinese propaganda machine would make its way to HN.
    - Kukumber 4y ago
      - haswell 4y ago
        If you’re only aware of blurry videos on Twitter, I’d recommend you do a deeper dive and look at additional reporting on this matter. You don’t have to look very far [0] (just a single example). At least you acknowledge the gigantic leap in your argument. How does one go through the ascension process? - [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/extra/85qihtvw6e/the-faces-from-chinas-uyghur-detention-camps https://www.bbc.com/news/extra/85qihtvw6e/the-faces-from-chi...
        MickerNews 4y ago
        haswell 4y ago
        > These images are all fake, and obviously so. As a photographer, what about these images is obviously fake? > All the eyes are at an identical pitch Which is evidence of what? Generally, when booking photos are taken, the subject is asked to look at a single spot to preserve consistency and identifiability. > when you go to the source you'll find many of them wearing exactly the same clothes, with exactly the same creases. I find it very unsurprising that people in a prison situation are wearing the same clothes. All of my clothing is also creased in the same places, but this is no big conspiracy, there are just popular ways of folding clothes… I’m always interested in getting the whole story, but you’re going to need to share a less sketchy link…
fritztastic 4y ago
None of what you mention presents plausible evidence of your statement implying that CIA/MI6 have monolithic control over information regarding the camps. Not to say they aren't manipulating information or have no involvement, but none of the evidence you present backs up your claim. Enforcing the birth of children and sending people to camps are two very different issues. The content not being HD could be explained by them using less detectable drones. I would imagine that flying a military or HD drone over sovereign territory would be dangerous and an act of aggression, so it's within the realm of belief that someone, perhaps covertly, used a drone less likely to draw suspicion, not easily detectable or traceable to foreign interests. Moreover if you watch the Frontline (the same source you cited above) documentaries about Iraq, you'll find they present people working in intelligence at the time explicitly told officials Zarqawi was sketchy and that the information he presented was not supported by the intel they had. I'm not saying it's a certainty without doubt that the camps are everything what some sources allege them to be, but it's also not certain without a doubt that they aren't.

jdmonty 4y ago

Source? Actually, low effort agit prop that could actually be done by NGOs. Moral grand standing by US is so tiresome… it’s an Psyop color revolution otherwise we’d see Saudi protests etc.

Retric 4y ago
China has openly acknowledged these camps, going so far has to request the UN acknowledge their sovereignty: “The Chinese government officially legalized re-education camps in Xinjiang in October 2018.[422] Prior to that, when international media had asked about the re-education camps, China's Ministry of Foreign Affairs said that they have not heard of this situation.[423] On 12 August 2018, a Chinese state-run tabloid, Global Times, defended the crackdown in Xinjiang after a U.N. anti-discrimination committee raised concerns over China's treatment of Uyghurs. According to the Global Times, China prevented Xinjiang from becoming 'China's Syria' or 'China's Libya', and local authorities' policies saved countless lives and avoided a 'great tragedy'.[424][425] On 21 August 2018, Liu Xiaoming, the Ambassador of China to the United Kingdom, wrote an article in response to a Financial Times report entitled "Crackdown in Xinjiang: Where have all the people gone?".[432] Liu's response said: "The education and training measures taken by the local government of Xinjiang have not only effectively prevented the infiltration of religious extremism and helped those lost in extremist ideas to find their way back, but also provided them with employment training in order to build a better life."[433] In September 2020, amid condemnation from Western countries, Chinese paramount leader Xi Jinping acclaimed the success of his policies in Xinjiang in a 2-day conference expected to set the country's policy for the next years.[445] The Chinese government published a white paper defending its "vocational training centers," claiming that the regional government organised 'employment-oriented training' and labour skills for 1.29 million workers a year from 2014 to 2019.[446]“ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps
- MickerNews 4y ago
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MickerNews 4y ago

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xwolfi 4y ago
I live in China, I think if our asses were so clean, we could all go there and even visit these reform camps they said they built and are not at all cruel and inhumane. You can say the foreigners exagerate, sure they do, with their sudden newfound love for muslim people even the worst ayatollahs of the world cant seem to express, but hum, it's not like there's no fire behind all this smoke... However I've always been careful not to call it a genocide: for me we must prove the mass deaths first.
- philliphaydon 4y ago
  Genocide doesn't mean mass killing. Just to cite Wikipedia... > In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such." These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly.
  - space_fountain 4y ago
    Well, but that isn’t the definition tend to think of right? They do think mass killing, it’s part of why the word has such power. If it was merely portrayed as the Chinese working to forcibly convert Muslims a lot of the US would shrug and say that seems good
space_fountain 4y ago
I can tell you believe this, and I do think it seems possible to me the west over plays it’s hand. Especially the genocide label, but your evidence isn’t exactly strong. You make it sound like Adrian Zenz is a cultist when as far as I can tell he’s just a passionate critic. As to the photos being deepfaked, I only look at a handful. One did look a bit suspicious, none of the others did, and none of them have that vanilla this person isn’t real type look. I also see the fact that China restricts travel to the region as compelling evidence of foul play even if when they occasionally do take people on tours they don’t find anything. Like you do know the Nazis produced lovely videos of concentration camps full have happy people just living out the war or whatever, China is hiding something. My fairly uninformed guess (and tell me if this seems right to you) is that what’s going on is merely on the level of what the US did to American Indians what with the boarding schools and the forced removal of their children with maybe a touch of forced labor on the side for spice. But it’s always worth remembering on this subject, only one of these countries tries to have the state capacity to squash dissent so yes I am a bit more skeptical of what their mouth pieces have to tell the world

MickerNews 4y ago

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joemazerino 4y ago
I stopped when you said "sinophobes". It is classic CCP counter-intel to describe all of it's enemies as racist. Why are you here on a thread about Iran anyways?
- MickerNews 4y ago
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- pessimizer 4y ago