6 ms·

Apart from the usual "this is something important that is happening" (which is not quite HN "intellectual curiosity" territory, what is striking is the use of w

Apart from the usual "this is something important that is happening" (which is not quite HN "intellectual curiosity" territory, what is striking is the use of what I assume is a V for Vendetta mask - with Red and Green daubing. How culture spreads is ... fascinating.

Kukumber 4y ago
[flagged]
- jimlongton 4y ago
  > It's similar with the low quality "drone" footage from the Uyghurs "camps Multiple news organizations have published high quality satellite photos of the Chinese concentration camps for ethnic minorities and Muslims, published the tenders for their construction and interviewed both victims and former jailers who have fled the country. Chinese officials on record boast about the 100s of thousands they have imprisoned or send to prison like factories across the country and the children they have separated from their parents for "re-education". Would you have us all believe this is an elaborate "MI6" conspiracy?
  - Kukumber 4y ago
    Do you remember when chinese were only able to give 1 single birth? That policy never applied to ethnic groups, so the idea that the chinese government is trying to imprison ethnic groups to "re-educate" them is hard to believe Concerning the MI6 story, it's not a conspiracy, when you share that kind of classified, military, materials with the public, your intent is not the truth, it's always manipulation, specially when the videos are always blurry, in the age of HD content, it's kinda fishy, maybe they want to obfuscate the imperfections, it gives me similar Colin Powell vibes https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/colin-powell-u-n-speech-was-a-great-intelligence-failure/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/colin-powell-u-n-...
    - haswell 4y ago
      > That policy never applied to ethnic groups, so the idea that the chinese government is trying to imprison ethnic groups to "re-educate" them is hard to believe I’m trying to understand this paragraph. In your mind, in what way does the one child policy make any of this hard to believe? How does that policy change our understanding of what’s going on in these camps?
      - Kukumber 4y ago
        If they were against ethnic groups, as the current western propaganda wants us to believe, they would have applied that policy so they'd have less of that "problematic ethnic group" They didn't, which mean they are fine having ethnic groups The west is pushing this propaganda because it's a known fact that the US want to split the Chinese territory (Tibetan, Uighurs, Taiwanese) (same with Russia btw) For the same reason they now, publicly announced, want to hinder China's development https://www.channelnewsasia.com/asia/china-lashes-out-latest-us-export-controls-chips-2996901 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/asia/china-lashes-out-latest...
        haswell 4y ago
        > They didn't, which mean they are fine having ethnic groups This is a gigantic leap to a conclusion that does not logically follow the premise, and ignores evidence that requires no such leaps. I guess it was the inevitable that the Chinese propaganda machine would make its way to HN.
        Kukumber 4y ago
        haswell 4y ago
        If you’re only aware of blurry videos on Twitter, I’d recommend you do a deeper dive and look at additional reporting on this matter. You don’t have to look very far [0] (just a single example). At least you acknowledge the gigantic leap in your argument. How does one go through the ascension process? - [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/extra/85qihtvw6e/the-faces-from-chinas-uyghur-detention-camps https://www.bbc.com/news/extra/85qihtvw6e/the-faces-from-chi...
  - jdmonty 4y ago
    Source? Actually, low effort agit prop that could actually be done by NGOs. Moral grand standing by US is so tiresome… it’s an Psyop color revolution otherwise we’d see Saudi protests etc.
    - Retric 4y ago
      China has openly acknowledged these camps, going so far has to request the UN acknowledge their sovereignty: “The Chinese government officially legalized re-education camps in Xinjiang in October 2018.[422] Prior to that, when international media had asked about the re-education camps, China's Ministry of Foreign Affairs said that they have not heard of this situation.[423] On 12 August 2018, a Chinese state-run tabloid, Global Times, defended the crackdown in Xinjiang after a U.N. anti-discrimination committee raised concerns over China's treatment of Uyghurs. According to the Global Times, China prevented Xinjiang from becoming 'China's Syria' or 'China's Libya', and local authorities' policies saved countless lives and avoided a 'great tragedy'.[424][425] On 21 August 2018, Liu Xiaoming, the Ambassador of China to the United Kingdom, wrote an article in response to a Financial Times report entitled "Crackdown in Xinjiang: Where have all the people gone?".[432] Liu's response said: "The education and training measures taken by the local government of Xinjiang have not only effectively prevented the infiltration of religious extremism and helped those lost in extremist ideas to find their way back, but also provided them with employment training in order to build a better life."[433] In September 2020, amid condemnation from Western countries, Chinese paramount leader Xi Jinping acclaimed the success of his policies in Xinjiang in a 2-day conference expected to set the country's policy for the next years.[445] The Chinese government published a white paper defending its "vocational training centers," claiming that the regional government organised 'employment-oriented training' and labour skills for 1.29 million workers a year from 2014 to 2019.[446]“ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps
      - MickerNews 4y ago
        4y ago
  - MickerNews 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - xwolfi 4y ago
      I live in China, I think if our asses were so clean, we could all go there and even visit these reform camps they said they built and are not at all cruel and inhumane. You can say the foreigners exagerate, sure they do, with their sudden newfound love for muslim people even the worst ayatollahs of the world cant seem to express, but hum, it's not like there's no fire behind all this smoke... However I've always been careful not to call it a genocide: for me we must prove the mass deaths first.
      - philliphaydon 4y ago
        Genocide doesn't mean mass killing. Just to cite Wikipedia... > In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such." These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly.
        space_fountain 4y ago
        Well, but that isn’t the definition tend to think of right? They do think mass killing, it’s part of why the word has such power. If it was merely portrayed as the Chinese working to forcibly convert Muslims a lot of the US would shrug and say that seems good
    - space_fountain 4y ago
      I can tell you believe this, and I do think it seems possible to me the west over plays it’s hand. Especially the genocide label, but your evidence isn’t exactly strong. You make it sound like Adrian Zenz is a cultist when as far as I can tell he’s just a passionate critic. As to the photos being deepfaked, I only look at a handful. One did look a bit suspicious, none of the others did, and none of them have that vanilla this person isn’t real type look. I also see the fact that China restricts travel to the region as compelling evidence of foul play even if when they occasionally do take people on tours they don’t find anything. Like you do know the Nazis produced lovely videos of concentration camps full have happy people just living out the war or whatever, China is hiding something. My fairly uninformed guess (and tell me if this seems right to you) is that what’s going on is merely on the level of what the US did to American Indians what with the boarding schools and the forced removal of their children with maybe a touch of forced labor on the side for spice. But it’s always worth remembering on this subject, only one of these countries tries to have the state capacity to squash dissent so yes I am a bit more skeptical of what their mouth pieces have to tell the world
  - MickerNews 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - joemazerino 4y ago
      I stopped when you said "sinophobes". It is classic CCP counter-intel to describe all of it's enemies as racist. Why are you here on a thread about Iran anyways?
      - MickerNews 4y ago
        aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
        MickerNews 4y ago
      - pessimizer 4y ago
- fritztastic 4y ago
  >the intent was to make sure people instantly understand without context This goes without saying, but this isn't exclusive to AlQaeda. Using video editing to convey a strong message isn't enough reason to conclude there is a link to foreign intelligence. Most likely they were just trying to be direct and convey a message (a statement to the regime that the people are tired of and angry about the oppression/violence)- none of what you mentioned to explain your association to AlQaeda makes any sense- "musical tribal message"? Are you inplying AlQaeda is controlled by a foreign agency? Which agency? Really makes it sound like you have a very vague understanding of the region, alongside a very strong bias.
- nashashmi 4y ago
  This has the marks of a colour revolution. From the false news spread constantly being spread by Masiha Alinejad, to the focus on a small but growing group of protestors, to the massive social media campaigns trying to flame the situation both in and outside of Iran, this is well coordinated. Mahsa Amini collapsed at a facility and was never hurt. No signs of being beaten are visible on her hospital pictures or her entry into the re-education centers. And yet the protest started from a few handful and started growing over several days. This is a coordinated campaign of disinformation and protest.
  - selimthegrim 4y ago
    Would you want Iranian system in Pakistan?
    - nashashmi 4y ago
      I would not want the Iranian system anywhere but Iran
- WastingMyTime89 4y ago
  The questions surrounding the involvement of foreign actors are interesting meanly because of the timing. It’s interesting that Iran see a vague of mass protests right after the utter failure of the nuclear talks and when they are admittedly very close to getting the bomb. Plenty of foreign powers therefore have an interest into seeing the current regime fall down and have historically never been above giving a gentle push in the right direction. It wouldn’t in any way make the reasons of the protests illegitimate however. Now, I don’t really understand why you bring Al Qaeda and the Uyghurs to the mix. That needlessly muddies your point.
  - Kukumber 4y ago
jagaerglad 4y ago
That is like ...nothing, then you have like no idea how omnipresent this type of pop culture is (for good or for worse). Of course iranians watch these types of movies and of course an iranian hacker would be aware of the mask symbolism
- GekkePrutser 4y ago
  These masks are also made by the Chinese in the billions and available in any "Bazar" for very cheap so they're a cheap way to obscure your identity :) Not saying this is the case here (for TV this is probably well considered and it's not the standard Chinese mask which is the 'smiling' version) but there might be more than one explanation especially for seeing them on the street during protests.
master_crab 4y ago
The genesis may have been “V for Vendetta” but I believe Anonymous used a similar mask and it’s possible the hacker/s are aware of that.
- squarefoot 4y ago
  Anonymous, and many other unrelated protesters, used the V for Vendetta mask when protesting against Scientology not just as a symbol but rather because of the cult..er church well known tactics of harassing anyone who opposes them. They usually followed protesters until they put the mask off so they or their car license plate could be photographed easing the identification.
system16 4y ago
Maybe that was the intention but it doesn't really look like a Guy Fawkes mask at all though, other than being a white face mask. Eyebrows and eye cut-outs are different, it has a full beard, it's not a v-shaped face, etc.
mgdlbp 4y ago
The red and green is just the Iranian flag though. What culture were you thinking of? Suiseiseki?

Kukumber 4y ago

[flagged]

jimlongton 4y ago
> It's similar with the low quality "drone" footage from the Uyghurs "camps Multiple news organizations have published high quality satellite photos of the Chinese concentration camps for ethnic minorities and Muslims, published the tenders for their construction and interviewed both victims and former jailers who have fled the country. Chinese officials on record boast about the 100s of thousands they have imprisoned or send to prison like factories across the country and the children they have separated from their parents for "re-education". Would you have us all believe this is an elaborate "MI6" conspiracy?
- Kukumber 4y ago
  Do you remember when chinese were only able to give 1 single birth? That policy never applied to ethnic groups, so the idea that the chinese government is trying to imprison ethnic groups to "re-educate" them is hard to believe Concerning the MI6 story, it's not a conspiracy, when you share that kind of classified, military, materials with the public, your intent is not the truth, it's always manipulation, specially when the videos are always blurry, in the age of HD content, it's kinda fishy, maybe they want to obfuscate the imperfections, it gives me similar Colin Powell vibes https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/colin-powell-u-n-speech-was-a-great-intelligence-failure/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/colin-powell-u-n-...
  - haswell 4y ago
    > That policy never applied to ethnic groups, so the idea that the chinese government is trying to imprison ethnic groups to "re-educate" them is hard to believe I’m trying to understand this paragraph. In your mind, in what way does the one child policy make any of this hard to believe? How does that policy change our understanding of what’s going on in these camps?
    - Kukumber 4y ago
      If they were against ethnic groups, as the current western propaganda wants us to believe, they would have applied that policy so they'd have less of that "problematic ethnic group" They didn't, which mean they are fine having ethnic groups The west is pushing this propaganda because it's a known fact that the US want to split the Chinese territory (Tibetan, Uighurs, Taiwanese) (same with Russia btw) For the same reason they now, publicly announced, want to hinder China's development https://www.channelnewsasia.com/asia/china-lashes-out-latest-us-export-controls-chips-2996901 https://www.channelnewsasia.com/asia/china-lashes-out-latest...
      - haswell 4y ago
        > They didn't, which mean they are fine having ethnic groups This is a gigantic leap to a conclusion that does not logically follow the premise, and ignores evidence that requires no such leaps. I guess it was the inevitable that the Chinese propaganda machine would make its way to HN.
        Kukumber 4y ago
        haswell 4y ago
        If you’re only aware of blurry videos on Twitter, I’d recommend you do a deeper dive and look at additional reporting on this matter. You don’t have to look very far [0] (just a single example). At least you acknowledge the gigantic leap in your argument. How does one go through the ascension process? - [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/extra/85qihtvw6e/the-faces-from-chinas-uyghur-detention-camps https://www.bbc.com/news/extra/85qihtvw6e/the-faces-from-chi...
- jdmonty 4y ago
  Source? Actually, low effort agit prop that could actually be done by NGOs. Moral grand standing by US is so tiresome… it’s an Psyop color revolution otherwise we’d see Saudi protests etc.
  - Retric 4y ago
    China has openly acknowledged these camps, going so far has to request the UN acknowledge their sovereignty: “The Chinese government officially legalized re-education camps in Xinjiang in October 2018.[422] Prior to that, when international media had asked about the re-education camps, China's Ministry of Foreign Affairs said that they have not heard of this situation.[423] On 12 August 2018, a Chinese state-run tabloid, Global Times, defended the crackdown in Xinjiang after a U.N. anti-discrimination committee raised concerns over China's treatment of Uyghurs. According to the Global Times, China prevented Xinjiang from becoming 'China's Syria' or 'China's Libya', and local authorities' policies saved countless lives and avoided a 'great tragedy'.[424][425] On 21 August 2018, Liu Xiaoming, the Ambassador of China to the United Kingdom, wrote an article in response to a Financial Times report entitled "Crackdown in Xinjiang: Where have all the people gone?".[432] Liu's response said: "The education and training measures taken by the local government of Xinjiang have not only effectively prevented the infiltration of religious extremism and helped those lost in extremist ideas to find their way back, but also provided them with employment training in order to build a better life."[433] In September 2020, amid condemnation from Western countries, Chinese paramount leader Xi Jinping acclaimed the success of his policies in Xinjiang in a 2-day conference expected to set the country's policy for the next years.[445] The Chinese government published a white paper defending its "vocational training centers," claiming that the regional government organised 'employment-oriented training' and labour skills for 1.29 million workers a year from 2014 to 2019.[446]“ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps
    - MickerNews 4y ago
      - 4y ago
- MickerNews 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - xwolfi 4y ago
    I live in China, I think if our asses were so clean, we could all go there and even visit these reform camps they said they built and are not at all cruel and inhumane. You can say the foreigners exagerate, sure they do, with their sudden newfound love for muslim people even the worst ayatollahs of the world cant seem to express, but hum, it's not like there's no fire behind all this smoke... However I've always been careful not to call it a genocide: for me we must prove the mass deaths first.
    - philliphaydon 4y ago
      Genocide doesn't mean mass killing. Just to cite Wikipedia... > In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such." These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly.
      - space_fountain 4y ago
        Well, but that isn’t the definition tend to think of right? They do think mass killing, it’s part of why the word has such power. If it was merely portrayed as the Chinese working to forcibly convert Muslims a lot of the US would shrug and say that seems good
  - space_fountain 4y ago
    I can tell you believe this, and I do think it seems possible to me the west over plays it’s hand. Especially the genocide label, but your evidence isn’t exactly strong. You make it sound like Adrian Zenz is a cultist when as far as I can tell he’s just a passionate critic. As to the photos being deepfaked, I only look at a handful. One did look a bit suspicious, none of the others did, and none of them have that vanilla this person isn’t real type look. I also see the fact that China restricts travel to the region as compelling evidence of foul play even if when they occasionally do take people on tours they don’t find anything. Like you do know the Nazis produced lovely videos of concentration camps full have happy people just living out the war or whatever, China is hiding something. My fairly uninformed guess (and tell me if this seems right to you) is that what’s going on is merely on the level of what the US did to American Indians what with the boarding schools and the forced removal of their children with maybe a touch of forced labor on the side for spice. But it’s always worth remembering on this subject, only one of these countries tries to have the state capacity to squash dissent so yes I am a bit more skeptical of what their mouth pieces have to tell the world
- MickerNews 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - joemazerino 4y ago
    I stopped when you said "sinophobes". It is classic CCP counter-intel to describe all of it's enemies as racist. Why are you here on a thread about Iran anyways?
    - MickerNews 4y ago
      - aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
        MickerNews 4y ago
    - pessimizer 4y ago
fritztastic 4y ago
>the intent was to make sure people instantly understand without context This goes without saying, but this isn't exclusive to AlQaeda. Using video editing to convey a strong message isn't enough reason to conclude there is a link to foreign intelligence. Most likely they were just trying to be direct and convey a message (a statement to the regime that the people are tired of and angry about the oppression/violence)- none of what you mentioned to explain your association to AlQaeda makes any sense- "musical tribal message"? Are you inplying AlQaeda is controlled by a foreign agency? Which agency? Really makes it sound like you have a very vague understanding of the region, alongside a very strong bias.
nashashmi 4y ago
This has the marks of a colour revolution. From the false news spread constantly being spread by Masiha Alinejad, to the focus on a small but growing group of protestors, to the massive social media campaigns trying to flame the situation both in and outside of Iran, this is well coordinated. Mahsa Amini collapsed at a facility and was never hurt. No signs of being beaten are visible on her hospital pictures or her entry into the re-education centers. And yet the protest started from a few handful and started growing over several days. This is a coordinated campaign of disinformation and protest.
- selimthegrim 4y ago
  Would you want Iranian system in Pakistan?
  - nashashmi 4y ago
    I would not want the Iranian system anywhere but Iran
WastingMyTime89 4y ago
The questions surrounding the involvement of foreign actors are interesting meanly because of the timing. It’s interesting that Iran see a vague of mass protests right after the utter failure of the nuclear talks and when they are admittedly very close to getting the bomb. Plenty of foreign powers therefore have an interest into seeing the current regime fall down and have historically never been above giving a gentle push in the right direction. It wouldn’t in any way make the reasons of the protests illegitimate however. Now, I don’t really understand why you bring Al Qaeda and the Uyghurs to the mix. That needlessly muddies your point.
- Kukumber 4y ago

jagaerglad 4y ago

That is like ...nothing, then you have like no idea how omnipresent this type of pop culture is (for good or for worse). Of course iranians watch these types of movies and of course an iranian hacker would be aware of the mask symbolism

GekkePrutser 4y ago
These masks are also made by the Chinese in the billions and available in any "Bazar" for very cheap so they're a cheap way to obscure your identity :) Not saying this is the case here (for TV this is probably well considered and it's not the standard Chinese mask which is the 'smiling' version) but there might be more than one explanation especially for seeing them on the street during protests.

master_crab 4y ago

The genesis may have been “V for Vendetta” but I believe Anonymous used a similar mask and it’s possible the hacker/s are aware of that.

squarefoot 4y ago
Anonymous, and many other unrelated protesters, used the V for Vendetta mask when protesting against Scientology not just as a symbol but rather because of the cult..er church well known tactics of harassing anyone who opposes them. They usually followed protesters until they put the mask off so they or their car license plate could be photographed easing the identification.

system16 4y ago

Maybe that was the intention but it doesn't really look like a Guy Fawkes mask at all though, other than being a white face mask. Eyebrows and eye cut-outs are different, it has a full beard, it's not a v-shaped face, etc.

mgdlbp 4y ago

The red and green is just the Iranian flag though. What culture were you thinking of? Suiseiseki?