3 ms·

As a meat-eater, I definitely respect vegans more because they have a clear ideological reasoning and don't rationalize. Vegetarianism seems really milquetoast

by Bakary 4y ago

As a meat-eater, I definitely respect vegans more because they have a clear ideological reasoning and don't rationalize. Vegetarianism seems really milquetoast in comparison, assuming it's not done for health reasons. It's the dietary equivalent of what an enthusiastic reader of The Economist is to politics: no real plan, just continuing with the status quo without really understanding why.

paulryanrogers 4y ago
What do you see as vegetarian rationalization? It seems reasonable to me that someone may have no trouble with animal products so long as they don't involve killing or inhumane conditions.
- Bakary 4y ago
  There isn't really an animal-using industry that involves humane conditions. Most justifications to the contrary are usually in bad faith, such as citing mom and pop farms or whatever as if that were even remotely the bulk of the sourcing. Even the fact of breeding animals specifically for harvest is already terrible, no matter if it's done by a kindly old couple or not. You would never treat a being whose life you value in this way.
- missingrib 4y ago
  Well, that fact that the dairy industry is very inhumane and involves killing animals.
Maursault 4y ago
> assuming it's not done for health reasons Do you have more respect for health-conscious cannibals than those that just like the taste? The reasons never matter; it's what is done that matters.
- Bakary 4y ago
  It's not about the reason, but rather the act of living in an authentic and bold manner and not making up excuses to assuage your guilt. You can respect one trait of the person while not approving of them in general. And sometimes more respect will really just mean less contempt, all else being equal.
  - Maursault 4y ago
    So if there are any feelings of guilt, you can't respect them, then you can only respect sociopaths.
    - Bakary 4y ago
      No, guilt is fine. Trying to avoid or sidestep the guilt through rationalization decreases respect. Though if we are talking about sociopaths, the base respect is low enough that it doesn't make much of a difference.
notjulianjaynes 4y ago
I'm a lifelong vegetarian. I agree the ethics of eggs and dairy aren't great. FWIW I primarily eat eggs from chickens I know personally. I've been a vegetarian since I was a child. My parents are not. I went to public school and had government subsidized school lunch. A no-dairy meal with sufficient calories was simply not an option. It was also generally much harder to maintain a vegetarian diet say 20 years ago than a vegan diet today."Salads don't make friends." I'm basically just set in my ways now and live with the hypocrisy. Until they perfect the CRISPR bugs that make casein from plants I'll continue to eat cheese made from animal milk. own a pair of leather boots, purchased new as well. It's not fair to the cow, but they last 5x as long as any comparable shoe made from synthetic material. Do I contradict myself, very well then blah blah blah https://64.media.tumblr.com/e238fe868189a39c4903ce7b7bb1a7b7/tumblr_mxrxwmPHWx1s5tlmxo1_540.png https://64.media.tumblr.com/e238fe868189a39c4903ce7b7bb1a7b7...
- pdc56 4y ago
  Such a refreshing comment. I get it. I'm default vegan but bought some brie to enjoy tonight as a treat, wear leather shoes etc. People want to be black and white. Sometimes just reducing the harm on yourself and animals and the environment to a large degree is enough, while still being able to enjoy and benefit from them just a bit here and there
  - Bakary 4y ago
    >I get it. I'm default vegan but bought some brie to enjoy tonight as a treat, wear leather shoes etc. You are not vegan. We can't confuse the idea of seeing the world as less black and white, and outright changing definitions. You wouldn't say "Oh I'm default teetotaler, but I bought a bottle of gin as a treat for tonight" If you want to identify as vegan, that's probably because you see the label as having some value. But for it to have value, it must mean something!
    - nicbou 4y ago
      Who cares? That person does far more than most to reduce animal harm and environmental impact. They called themselves default vegan, which is a lot like saying "I don't usually drink". A lot of people doing mostly the right thing is a lot better than the same people thinking it's pointless to try.
Spooky23 4y ago

by Bakary 4y ago

paulryanrogers 4y ago

What do you see as vegetarian rationalization? It seems reasonable to me that someone may have no trouble with animal products so long as they don't involve killing or inhumane conditions.

Bakary 4y ago
There isn't really an animal-using industry that involves humane conditions. Most justifications to the contrary are usually in bad faith, such as citing mom and pop farms or whatever as if that were even remotely the bulk of the sourcing. Even the fact of breeding animals specifically for harvest is already terrible, no matter if it's done by a kindly old couple or not. You would never treat a being whose life you value in this way.
missingrib 4y ago
Well, that fact that the dairy industry is very inhumane and involves killing animals.

Maursault 4y ago

> assuming it's not done for health reasons Do you have more respect for health-conscious cannibals than those that just like the taste? The reasons never matter; it's what is done that matters.

Bakary 4y ago
It's not about the reason, but rather the act of living in an authentic and bold manner and not making up excuses to assuage your guilt. You can respect one trait of the person while not approving of them in general. And sometimes more respect will really just mean less contempt, all else being equal.
- Maursault 4y ago
  So if there are any feelings of guilt, you can't respect them, then you can only respect sociopaths.
  - Bakary 4y ago
    No, guilt is fine. Trying to avoid or sidestep the guilt through rationalization decreases respect. Though if we are talking about sociopaths, the base respect is low enough that it doesn't make much of a difference.

notjulianjaynes 4y ago

I'm a lifelong vegetarian. I agree the ethics of eggs and dairy aren't great. FWIW I primarily eat eggs from chickens I know personally. I've been a vegetarian since I was a child. My parents are not. I went to public school and had government subsidized school lunch. A no-dairy meal with sufficient calories was simply not an option. It was also generally much harder to maintain a vegetarian diet say 20 years ago than a vegan diet today."Salads don't make friends." I'm basically just set in my ways now and live with the hypocrisy. Until they perfect the CRISPR bugs that make casein from plants I'll continue to eat cheese made from animal milk. own a pair of leather boots, purchased new as well. It's not fair to the cow, but they last 5x as long as any comparable shoe made from synthetic material. Do I contradict myself, very well then blah blah blah https://64.media.tumblr.com/e238fe868189a39c4903ce7b7bb1a7b7/tumblr_mxrxwmPHWx1s5tlmxo1_540.png https://64.media.tumblr.com/e238fe868189a39c4903ce7b7bb1a7b7...

pdc56 4y ago
Such a refreshing comment. I get it. I'm default vegan but bought some brie to enjoy tonight as a treat, wear leather shoes etc. People want to be black and white. Sometimes just reducing the harm on yourself and animals and the environment to a large degree is enough, while still being able to enjoy and benefit from them just a bit here and there
- Bakary 4y ago
  >I get it. I'm default vegan but bought some brie to enjoy tonight as a treat, wear leather shoes etc. You are not vegan. We can't confuse the idea of seeing the world as less black and white, and outright changing definitions. You wouldn't say "Oh I'm default teetotaler, but I bought a bottle of gin as a treat for tonight" If you want to identify as vegan, that's probably because you see the label as having some value. But for it to have value, it must mean something!
  - nicbou 4y ago
    Who cares? That person does far more than most to reduce animal harm and environmental impact. They called themselves default vegan, which is a lot like saying "I don't usually drink". A lot of people doing mostly the right thing is a lot better than the same people thinking it's pointless to try.

Spooky23 4y ago