4 ms·

The Death of the Vegetarian

23 points by indigodaddy 4y ago

Spooky23 4y ago
- ncmncm 4y ago
  "if you're vegan, it means you're better than most people." "No vegan edge, no vegan powers!"
nicbou 4y ago
I have stopped reading articles titled "the rise of" and "the death of". They are either pure clickbait, or a story about a dozen people. This one is no exception.
- indigodaddy 4y ago
  As a lifelong vegetarian, the article is spot-on. At least with respect to the replacement of vegetarian options with vegan options in restaurants (in the US vegetarian options are dwindling and vegan options rising). And also very much so with regard to the overall disdain of the vegan community of vegetarians. A typical vegan has less respect for a vegetarian than even a meat-eater.
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    "Considering the vast abyss of our Galaxy, and sweep of our solar system and even just our wide world, it doesn't seem like I really eat much cheese."
  - blacksmith_tb 4y ago
    Hmm, as a lifelong vegetarian, I guess I haven't noticed (or possibly cared about) any vegan scorn, but I don't have any problem eating the dishes on the menu marked V-for-Vegan, so in general the trend seems fine to me (with the possible exception of vegan cheeses, which are not very tasty, but worse, not very nutritious either; and fake meats, which are sometimes nutritious but I just find odd).
    - jghn 4y ago
      I think the menu trend makes sense. "Vegetarian" has so many permutations that I think it'd be hard for a restaurant to mark a dish that way. "Vegan" has a much more well defined definition.
      - cool_dude85 4y ago
        I don't think anyone would look at a menu item marked vegetarian and expect anything else than it not containing meat. People say they're vegetarian but eat fish sometimes, etc. but it's different for an actual meal. Nobody would call fried fish a vegetarian meal.
        zarzavat 4y ago
        If it were in an Indian restaurant you would expect the vegetarian option to also not contain eggs, as eggs are considered meat for many Hindus. On the other hand, in a Thai restaurant the vegetarian option might contain shrimp paste.
  - Bakary 4y ago
    As a meat-eater, I definitely respect vegans more because they have a clear ideological reasoning and don't rationalize. Vegetarianism seems really milquetoast in comparison, assuming it's not done for health reasons. It's the dietary equivalent of what an enthusiastic reader of The Economist is to politics: no real plan, just continuing with the status quo without really understanding why.
    - paulryanrogers 4y ago
      What do you see as vegetarian rationalization? It seems reasonable to me that someone may have no trouble with animal products so long as they don't involve killing or inhumane conditions.
      - Bakary 4y ago
        There isn't really an animal-using industry that involves humane conditions. Most justifications to the contrary are usually in bad faith, such as citing mom and pop farms or whatever as if that were even remotely the bulk of the sourcing. Even the fact of breeding animals specifically for harvest is already terrible, no matter if it's done by a kindly old couple or not. You would never treat a being whose life you value in this way.
      - missingrib 4y ago
        Well, that fact that the dairy industry is very inhumane and involves killing animals.
    - Maursault 4y ago
      > assuming it's not done for health reasons Do you have more respect for health-conscious cannibals than those that just like the taste? The reasons never matter; it's what is done that matters.
      - Bakary 4y ago
        It's not about the reason, but rather the act of living in an authentic and bold manner and not making up excuses to assuage your guilt. You can respect one trait of the person while not approving of them in general. And sometimes more respect will really just mean less contempt, all else being equal.
  - Maursault 4y ago
    > (in the US vegetarian options are dwindling and vegan options rising) I think you must mean "option," singular. In most restaurants, not counting salad, if a veggie entree is there at all, it is one single menu option. It should be easy to eat vegan or vegetarian, and easy to eat healthy in general, but it definitely is not. For some twisted reason (greed, probably), there is at least a little animal product and copious amounts of salt, sugar and weird chemicals in nearly everything. What we need is a crazy vegan/vegetarian billionaire to come along and flood the food market with healthy food options, so you'd have to go out of your way to eat crap, pretty much the opposite of the way it is now and has been for a long time.
    - benj111 4y ago
      How often do you go out to restaurants? If I go out I want to indulge myself, not calorie count.
      - Maursault 4y ago
        > How often do you go out to restaurants? Leas and less, and I live in a rural area with many horrid examples, but I like Americana grills, and I order off the menu because there is nothing on those menus without meat, usually ordering a cheesesteak without the meat, add some more peppers and mushrooms to compensate. There actually is a vegan/vegetarian restaurant in this one horse town, but like all others I have experienced, the menu tries too hard to be interesting, unrecognizably so, and the menu items are 3-5 times more expensive than a burger, fries and a coke, which I no longer eat. They only serve pasta cold in salad, leaving that whole pasta world that could easily be vegan unaddressed. And I definitely don't care about too many calories, the major concern here is not getting enough calories. If not for bread, rice and pasta, which I eat at home with whatever fruit and vegetables I have that haven't spoiled, I would have starved long ago. The tomato is the most versatile fruit I know, and I eat slices as though they were raw meat.
        benj111 4y ago
        Ok. Your post seemed to be coming from a health perspective. I don't really want my restaurant food being healthy, I want it to be nice I can eat healthily at home. But then I don't mind expensive restaurants. Id rather have something expensive and nice occasionally than having something I could have cooked better myself.
  - djcjr 4y ago
    You made some pretty wild claims there, about the vegan community as a whole, and then about a typical vegan.
  - enruwhuy 4y ago
    I don’t really see why a vegan option isn’t considered vegetarian. Does it have to contain milk, eggs or honey to be acceptable? When I was vegetarian, I ate at vegan places for years without really being aware of the difference - all I cared about was not eating meat, and I don’t remember thinking “this doesn’t feel complete without cheese” or anything.
Bakary 4y ago
It's a throwaway line, but I take issue at the idea that you can't get vegetarian meals in a tiny French village. Any traditional culinary setup is going to have at least a plurality of vegetarian options due to meat not always having been affordable and people experimenting with what they have. It's only when you weaken the link between food and cultural history that you end up with a lopsided menu (or maybe you are in a specific situation such as surviving on mostly seal blubber for generations), so you're paradoxically more likely to run into vegetarian problems in modern restaurants as described in the article than in a place with traditional cooking.
- riffraff 4y ago
  Yeah, in a small Italian village you're just as likely to find vegatable-only food. In a weird way, it's become harder to eat traditional vegetables (say, edible wild weeds salad) than some tropical import.
aaron695 4y ago
Hackbraten 4y ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20220627132530/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/features/death-of-vegetarian-vegan-restaurants-menus-options/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220627132530/https://www.teleg...

23 points by indigodaddy 4y ago

ncmncm 4y ago
"if you're vegan, it means you're better than most people." "No vegan edge, no vegan powers!"

I have stopped reading articles titled "the rise of" and "the death of". They are either pure clickbait, or a story about a dozen people. This one is no exception.

indigodaddy 4y ago
As a lifelong vegetarian, the article is spot-on. At least with respect to the replacement of vegetarian options with vegan options in restaurants (in the US vegetarian options are dwindling and vegan options rising). And also very much so with regard to the overall disdain of the vegan community of vegetarians. A typical vegan has less respect for a vegetarian than even a meat-eater.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  "Considering the vast abyss of our Galaxy, and sweep of our solar system and even just our wide world, it doesn't seem like I really eat much cheese."
- blacksmith_tb 4y ago
  Hmm, as a lifelong vegetarian, I guess I haven't noticed (or possibly cared about) any vegan scorn, but I don't have any problem eating the dishes on the menu marked V-for-Vegan, so in general the trend seems fine to me (with the possible exception of vegan cheeses, which are not very tasty, but worse, not very nutritious either; and fake meats, which are sometimes nutritious but I just find odd).
  - jghn 4y ago
    I think the menu trend makes sense. "Vegetarian" has so many permutations that I think it'd be hard for a restaurant to mark a dish that way. "Vegan" has a much more well defined definition.
    - cool_dude85 4y ago
      I don't think anyone would look at a menu item marked vegetarian and expect anything else than it not containing meat. People say they're vegetarian but eat fish sometimes, etc. but it's different for an actual meal. Nobody would call fried fish a vegetarian meal.
      - zarzavat 4y ago
        If it were in an Indian restaurant you would expect the vegetarian option to also not contain eggs, as eggs are considered meat for many Hindus. On the other hand, in a Thai restaurant the vegetarian option might contain shrimp paste.
- Bakary 4y ago
  As a meat-eater, I definitely respect vegans more because they have a clear ideological reasoning and don't rationalize. Vegetarianism seems really milquetoast in comparison, assuming it's not done for health reasons. It's the dietary equivalent of what an enthusiastic reader of The Economist is to politics: no real plan, just continuing with the status quo without really understanding why.
  - paulryanrogers 4y ago
    What do you see as vegetarian rationalization? It seems reasonable to me that someone may have no trouble with animal products so long as they don't involve killing or inhumane conditions.
    - Bakary 4y ago
      There isn't really an animal-using industry that involves humane conditions. Most justifications to the contrary are usually in bad faith, such as citing mom and pop farms or whatever as if that were even remotely the bulk of the sourcing. Even the fact of breeding animals specifically for harvest is already terrible, no matter if it's done by a kindly old couple or not. You would never treat a being whose life you value in this way.
    - missingrib 4y ago
      Well, that fact that the dairy industry is very inhumane and involves killing animals.
  - Maursault 4y ago
    > assuming it's not done for health reasons Do you have more respect for health-conscious cannibals than those that just like the taste? The reasons never matter; it's what is done that matters.
    - Bakary 4y ago
      It's not about the reason, but rather the act of living in an authentic and bold manner and not making up excuses to assuage your guilt. You can respect one trait of the person while not approving of them in general. And sometimes more respect will really just mean less contempt, all else being equal.
- Maursault 4y ago
  > (in the US vegetarian options are dwindling and vegan options rising) I think you must mean "option," singular. In most restaurants, not counting salad, if a veggie entree is there at all, it is one single menu option. It should be easy to eat vegan or vegetarian, and easy to eat healthy in general, but it definitely is not. For some twisted reason (greed, probably), there is at least a little animal product and copious amounts of salt, sugar and weird chemicals in nearly everything. What we need is a crazy vegan/vegetarian billionaire to come along and flood the food market with healthy food options, so you'd have to go out of your way to eat crap, pretty much the opposite of the way it is now and has been for a long time.
  - benj111 4y ago
    How often do you go out to restaurants? If I go out I want to indulge myself, not calorie count.
    - Maursault 4y ago
      > How often do you go out to restaurants? Leas and less, and I live in a rural area with many horrid examples, but I like Americana grills, and I order off the menu because there is nothing on those menus without meat, usually ordering a cheesesteak without the meat, add some more peppers and mushrooms to compensate. There actually is a vegan/vegetarian restaurant in this one horse town, but like all others I have experienced, the menu tries too hard to be interesting, unrecognizably so, and the menu items are 3-5 times more expensive than a burger, fries and a coke, which I no longer eat. They only serve pasta cold in salad, leaving that whole pasta world that could easily be vegan unaddressed. And I definitely don't care about too many calories, the major concern here is not getting enough calories. If not for bread, rice and pasta, which I eat at home with whatever fruit and vegetables I have that haven't spoiled, I would have starved long ago. The tomato is the most versatile fruit I know, and I eat slices as though they were raw meat.
      - benj111 4y ago
        Ok. Your post seemed to be coming from a health perspective. I don't really want my restaurant food being healthy, I want it to be nice I can eat healthily at home. But then I don't mind expensive restaurants. Id rather have something expensive and nice occasionally than having something I could have cooked better myself.
- djcjr 4y ago
  You made some pretty wild claims there, about the vegan community as a whole, and then about a typical vegan.
- enruwhuy 4y ago
  I don’t really see why a vegan option isn’t considered vegetarian. Does it have to contain milk, eggs or honey to be acceptable? When I was vegetarian, I ate at vegan places for years without really being aware of the difference - all I cared about was not eating meat, and I don’t remember thinking “this doesn’t feel complete without cheese” or anything.

Bakary 4y ago

It's a throwaway line, but I take issue at the idea that you can't get vegetarian meals in a tiny French village. Any traditional culinary setup is going to have at least a plurality of vegetarian options due to meat not always having been affordable and people experimenting with what they have. It's only when you weaken the link between food and cultural history that you end up with a lopsided menu (or maybe you are in a specific situation such as surviving on mostly seal blubber for generations), so you're paradoxically more likely to run into vegetarian problems in modern restaurants as described in the article than in a place with traditional cooking.

riffraff 4y ago
Yeah, in a small Italian village you're just as likely to find vegatable-only food. In a weird way, it's become harder to eat traditional vegetables (say, edible wild weeds salad) than some tropical import.

aaron695 4y ago

Hackbraten 4y ago

https://web.archive.org/web/20220627132530/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/features/death-of-vegetarian-vegan-restaurants-menus-options/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220627132530/https://www.teleg...