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It's definitely possible, but there are no drivers released by the GPU manufacturers. They may simply not see any benefit of making such an investment, and they

It's definitely possible, but there are no drivers released by the GPU manufacturers. They may simply not see any benefit of making such an investment, and they might point a finger at Apple for not allowing them the ease of development using kernel access (they would have to make a DEXT or something like that). It's also likely that there isn't really much of a market for it anymore.

rektide 4y ago
To be clear, there really shouldnt need to be support for egpus specifically. Its just that MacOS, being run on almost entirely fixed hardware with off-brand/custom apis (Metal) isnt attractive for gpu makers in any capacity. Otoh on Linux it should just work!
- Wowfunhappy 4y ago
  > Otoh on Linux it should just work! It won't, unfortunately. https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1538426240922963968 https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1538426240922963968
  - oneplane 4y ago
    Yeah, most of the M1 (and some M2) limitations seem to stem from the mobile stack where it's not "a PC but smaller" but the other way around ("embedded mobile, but now make it PC-sized"). They lack a whole bunch of similar peripheral configurations, it's why on the base M1 you also get very few USB/TB ports, graphics output support or PCIe lanes in general. I suppose it makes sense considering they can design the products as a whole and only add what they actually need instead of just getting a bunch of stuff and seeing what sticks in their design (which is what happens if you have a ton of external suppliers for CPU, PCH etc.). Maybe if they come up with some M2 Ultra Max XXL or whatever they will get an abundance of lanes that require other BAR configurations to make proper use of (which would then mostly make sense if they go Mac Pro or at least larger-than-mac-studio - but if that is going to include PCIe slots... who knows).
- oneplane 4y ago
  To be clear, I was talking about binary drivers supplied by AMD and Nvidia for the most common GPUs that are attached externally. Not about the fact that they were external. MacOS has built in drivers for plenty of GPUs, including AMD, Nvidia, Apple and Intel. But on the ARM64 side, AMD and Nvidia have not made any drivers for Windows or macOS, so you are out of luck on the software side.
  - izacus 4y ago
    In Ventura, Apple has removed the last parts of nVidia driver they shipped even on Intel platforms so thats that for any 3rd party GPUs being usable in their walled garden.
    - oneplane 4y ago
      Why the "walled garden" flame bait? Just because Apple removes old drivers that were deprecated 3 major releases ago (because that's the last version where 5+ year old Macs were still shipping with AMD or Nvidia graphics) doesn't mean that therefore nobody in the world could ever make drivers. Any GPU manufacturer could right now make a driver that works on Aarch64 for Windows, macOS and Linux, regardless of what Microsoft or Apple does. But they don't (so far, at this point, but I can't foresee the future). To the point of being 'blessed' by the OS manufacturer: Microsoft probably won't make DCH signed drivers until their contract with Qualcomm for exclusive Windows ARM end-user hardware expires, they only sign drivers for their own internal hardware and Qualcomms internal hardware, and that's it. Apple is in a similar situation but they just won't support any internal peripherals that they don't manufacture themselves. You can, however, still make and load those drivers, it's just not a non-technical experience for the average user (and one could argue that eGPUs aren't for the mass market anyway). Keep in mind that both Microsoft and Apple have their own 'special' versions of GPU drivers for AMD and Nvidia (and Intel) that are code from those three manufacturers but packaged and maintained by them. And then there is the ODM and public versions, where the ODM version is mostly used by laptop manufacturers, and the public version is what you find in the downloadable 'universal' packages from the GPU manufacturer website. Those can be made by those manufactures at any time, for any OS, if they want to.
- Maursault 4y ago
  > Its just that MacOS, being run on almost entirely fixed hardware with off-brand/custom apis (Metal) isnt attractive for gpu makers in any capacity. It has nothing to do with macOS and nothing to do with GPU manufacturers, only that Apple Silicon drivers for eGPUs do not exist, and there is no reason for them to exist because M1 delivers better performance than any eGPU. > Otoh on Linux it should just work! There's a diesel truck I want, has the power and performance I need, but I just hate diesel. Why are they forcing me to use a fuel I hate? What are the chances I can get this diesel engine to run on linux gas? Linux gas is such a cool fuel, I can do almost anything with it and not be locked in to the diesel walled garden. I also have this compact car that I just hate the engine, it's only 1 liter. Why do car manufacturers force their stupid flashy engines on us? I want to put a 20 liter linux engine in there, but the engine bay is too small. What are the chances I'll ever be able to squeeze my linux engine in there? Someone should just release a GNU/XNU distribution, call it "ARMac 'Linux'" and be done with it, because 99% of the cry babies don't really care about Linux, they just think that they do. All they really want is GNU. The other 0.9% can use MacPorts to build or install and run GNOME on macOS, and tell everyone it's Linux. Unless they saw the directory structure, Penguinistas wouldn't know the difference. For the remaining 0.1% that actually do want and need the Linux kernel on Apple Silicon, only they deserve our sympathy.
  - alex7o 4y ago
    I like the fastest cheap, arm docker compatible server. And as far as I know, docker doesn't work on XNU
    - Maursault 4y ago
      That's tough. Mac Pro for you, if it must be Mac hardware. But why on earth Mac docker server? Obviously not for professional purposes. For play, use any x86 box you like, just because you want speed doesn't mean speed is necessary. If it must be Apple Silicon, then you can run as many virtual instances of macOS as you like on my GNU/XNU ARMac "Linux" (not actually Linux) release, and as many Docker Desktop for Apple Silicon as virtual instances of macOS. But if Docker had any decency, they'd release the source code to you, so you could build it native for Apple Silicon XNU. Have you considered working for Docker? Would make it a lot easier to get the source code, or just move through the ranks and make it a Docker initiative. Or suppose we agree while you can't actually run docker server on Apple Silicon, because the code doesn't exist, which is no one's fault, not even Apple's, but that you can still have the right to run docker server on Apple Silicon. We shall fight your oppressors for your right to run docker server on Apple Silicon because it is symbolic of our struggle against oppression.[1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c
firecall 4y ago
Id guess that the market is reduced due to the price of eGPU encloses! Anything Thunderbolt seems to be a expensive to me!

rektide 4y ago

To be clear, there really shouldnt need to be support for egpus specifically. Its just that MacOS, being run on almost entirely fixed hardware with off-brand/custom apis (Metal) isnt attractive for gpu makers in any capacity. Otoh on Linux it should just work!

Wowfunhappy 4y ago
> Otoh on Linux it should just work! It won't, unfortunately. https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1538426240922963968 https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1538426240922963968
- oneplane 4y ago
  Yeah, most of the M1 (and some M2) limitations seem to stem from the mobile stack where it's not "a PC but smaller" but the other way around ("embedded mobile, but now make it PC-sized"). They lack a whole bunch of similar peripheral configurations, it's why on the base M1 you also get very few USB/TB ports, graphics output support or PCIe lanes in general. I suppose it makes sense considering they can design the products as a whole and only add what they actually need instead of just getting a bunch of stuff and seeing what sticks in their design (which is what happens if you have a ton of external suppliers for CPU, PCH etc.). Maybe if they come up with some M2 Ultra Max XXL or whatever they will get an abundance of lanes that require other BAR configurations to make proper use of (which would then mostly make sense if they go Mac Pro or at least larger-than-mac-studio - but if that is going to include PCIe slots... who knows).
oneplane 4y ago
To be clear, I was talking about binary drivers supplied by AMD and Nvidia for the most common GPUs that are attached externally. Not about the fact that they were external. MacOS has built in drivers for plenty of GPUs, including AMD, Nvidia, Apple and Intel. But on the ARM64 side, AMD and Nvidia have not made any drivers for Windows or macOS, so you are out of luck on the software side.
- izacus 4y ago
  In Ventura, Apple has removed the last parts of nVidia driver they shipped even on Intel platforms so thats that for any 3rd party GPUs being usable in their walled garden.
  - oneplane 4y ago
    Why the "walled garden" flame bait? Just because Apple removes old drivers that were deprecated 3 major releases ago (because that's the last version where 5+ year old Macs were still shipping with AMD or Nvidia graphics) doesn't mean that therefore nobody in the world could ever make drivers. Any GPU manufacturer could right now make a driver that works on Aarch64 for Windows, macOS and Linux, regardless of what Microsoft or Apple does. But they don't (so far, at this point, but I can't foresee the future). To the point of being 'blessed' by the OS manufacturer: Microsoft probably won't make DCH signed drivers until their contract with Qualcomm for exclusive Windows ARM end-user hardware expires, they only sign drivers for their own internal hardware and Qualcomms internal hardware, and that's it. Apple is in a similar situation but they just won't support any internal peripherals that they don't manufacture themselves. You can, however, still make and load those drivers, it's just not a non-technical experience for the average user (and one could argue that eGPUs aren't for the mass market anyway). Keep in mind that both Microsoft and Apple have their own 'special' versions of GPU drivers for AMD and Nvidia (and Intel) that are code from those three manufacturers but packaged and maintained by them. And then there is the ODM and public versions, where the ODM version is mostly used by laptop manufacturers, and the public version is what you find in the downloadable 'universal' packages from the GPU manufacturer website. Those can be made by those manufactures at any time, for any OS, if they want to.
Maursault 4y ago
> Its just that MacOS, being run on almost entirely fixed hardware with off-brand/custom apis (Metal) isnt attractive for gpu makers in any capacity. It has nothing to do with macOS and nothing to do with GPU manufacturers, only that Apple Silicon drivers for eGPUs do not exist, and there is no reason for them to exist because M1 delivers better performance than any eGPU. > Otoh on Linux it should just work! There's a diesel truck I want, has the power and performance I need, but I just hate diesel. Why are they forcing me to use a fuel I hate? What are the chances I can get this diesel engine to run on linux gas? Linux gas is such a cool fuel, I can do almost anything with it and not be locked in to the diesel walled garden. I also have this compact car that I just hate the engine, it's only 1 liter. Why do car manufacturers force their stupid flashy engines on us? I want to put a 20 liter linux engine in there, but the engine bay is too small. What are the chances I'll ever be able to squeeze my linux engine in there? Someone should just release a GNU/XNU distribution, call it "ARMac 'Linux'" and be done with it, because 99% of the cry babies don't really care about Linux, they just think that they do. All they really want is GNU. The other 0.9% can use MacPorts to build or install and run GNOME on macOS, and tell everyone it's Linux. Unless they saw the directory structure, Penguinistas wouldn't know the difference. For the remaining 0.1% that actually do want and need the Linux kernel on Apple Silicon, only they deserve our sympathy.
- alex7o 4y ago
  I like the fastest cheap, arm docker compatible server. And as far as I know, docker doesn't work on XNU
  - Maursault 4y ago
    That's tough. Mac Pro for you, if it must be Mac hardware. But why on earth Mac docker server? Obviously not for professional purposes. For play, use any x86 box you like, just because you want speed doesn't mean speed is necessary. If it must be Apple Silicon, then you can run as many virtual instances of macOS as you like on my GNU/XNU ARMac "Linux" (not actually Linux) release, and as many Docker Desktop for Apple Silicon as virtual instances of macOS. But if Docker had any decency, they'd release the source code to you, so you could build it native for Apple Silicon XNU. Have you considered working for Docker? Would make it a lot easier to get the source code, or just move through the ranks and make it a Docker initiative. Or suppose we agree while you can't actually run docker server on Apple Silicon, because the code doesn't exist, which is no one's fault, not even Apple's, but that you can still have the right to run docker server on Apple Silicon. We shall fight your oppressors for your right to run docker server on Apple Silicon because it is symbolic of our struggle against oppression.[1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c

firecall 4y ago

Id guess that the market is reduced due to the price of eGPU encloses! Anything Thunderbolt seems to be a expensive to me!