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Could you leave an empty socket for a wifi controller chip but still build in the antennas? Although that would likely lock you into whatever chip had the right

Could you leave an empty socket for a wifi controller chip but still build in the antennas? Although that would likely lock you into whatever chip had the right pin out which seems a bit pointless.

derefr 4y ago
Why not just have the wifi-controller hardware already there, but strip out the software required to make it do anything? I.e. modularize the BIOS firmware such that you flash "the BIOS firmware" and "the wifi/bluetooth stack firmware" separately, to separate chips. Then ship the motherboard without the wifi/bluetooth stack firmware pre-flashed — with the NAND that the wifi controller initializes from, just empty, such that the wifi controller immediately halts on boot, and the CPU doesn't find it on the bus. Make sure the rest of the BIOS works without the wifi controller "up". And then have an open root key of trust for the BIOS (= you can sign your own BIOS), but a closed root key of trust for the wifi controller (= only the OEM can sign the wifi/bluetooth stack firmware.) It doesn't seem like it would be all that hard, given that we already have this kind of hardware firmware (+ firmware storage) modularity in modern devices in other ways — e.g. most trackpads have their own isolated firmware, that the host can flash to update, but which isn't otherwise accessed by the host CPU, rather only the trackpad microcontroller itself; where the trackpad firmware flash lives inside the trackpad, not in the host.
dylan604 4y ago
Seems like this kind of radio chip would be standard pin out in 2022. Could you not just put one of those chips like Broadcom makes that has all the radio formats on it? Even sell it as a "kit" so that it comes with it but you have to install yourself to meet "regulations" or licensing terms. The first gen of Thunderbolt add-on came as PCIe due to some sort licensing issue instead of on the mobo directly
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  The pinout is already standard, you can use mini-PCIe (common in older laptops) or the more recent M2 slot (which is the same PCIe but in a different form-factor). In fact some boards already come with 2 M2 slots, so nothing prevents you from using the second one for a wireless card if you so desire. Bluetooth on the other hand is low-enough bandwidth that a USB adapter works fine generally (USB Wi-Fi adapters also work but USB uses more CPU which is a problem for high-bandwidth networking). Personally I just don't see the point of Wi-Fi for a stationary machine anyway - you're wasting valuable spectrum for something better served by an Ethernet cable (sourced from a powerline adapter if you're really desperate).
- wtallis 4y ago
  Every desktop motherboard on the market that has WiFi implements it by means of a M.2 2230 card inside a shield can that's screwed to the motherboard, with antenna connectors on pigtails coming out the side of the can to protrude through cutouts in the IO backplate. The WiFi is already a self-contained module with a standard hardware interface and its own FCC ID and certification. I don't recall ever seeing a motherboard include WiFi support in its UEFI firmware. So from the perspective of the motherboard manufacturer, WiFi is just a component they stick on the board and ship, with no regulatory overhead aside from duplicating the WiFi module's identifying information on a sticker that isn't hidden beneath the VRM heatsinks. The motherboard market really couldn't tolerate any wireless solution more complicated than that.

Could you leave an empty socket for a wifi controller chip but still build in the antennas? Although that would likely lock you into whatever chip had the right pin out which seems a bit pointless.

derefr 4y ago

Why not just have the wifi-controller hardware already there, but strip out the software required to make it do anything? I.e. modularize the BIOS firmware such that you flash "the BIOS firmware" and "the wifi/bluetooth stack firmware" separately, to separate chips. Then ship the motherboard without the wifi/bluetooth stack firmware pre-flashed — with the NAND that the wifi controller initializes from, just empty, such that the wifi controller immediately halts on boot, and the CPU doesn't find it on the bus. Make sure the rest of the BIOS works without the wifi controller "up". And then have an open root key of trust for the BIOS (= you can sign your own BIOS), but a closed root key of trust for the wifi controller (= only the OEM can sign the wifi/bluetooth stack firmware.) It doesn't seem like it would be all that hard, given that we already have this kind of hardware firmware (+ firmware storage) modularity in modern devices in other ways — e.g. most trackpads have their own isolated firmware, that the host can flash to update, but which isn't otherwise accessed by the host CPU, rather only the trackpad microcontroller itself; where the trackpad firmware flash lives inside the trackpad, not in the host.

dylan604 4y ago

Seems like this kind of radio chip would be standard pin out in 2022. Could you not just put one of those chips like Broadcom makes that has all the radio formats on it? Even sell it as a "kit" so that it comes with it but you have to install yourself to meet "regulations" or licensing terms. The first gen of Thunderbolt add-on came as PCIe due to some sort licensing issue instead of on the mobo directly

Nextgrid 4y ago
The pinout is already standard, you can use mini-PCIe (common in older laptops) or the more recent M2 slot (which is the same PCIe but in a different form-factor). In fact some boards already come with 2 M2 slots, so nothing prevents you from using the second one for a wireless card if you so desire. Bluetooth on the other hand is low-enough bandwidth that a USB adapter works fine generally (USB Wi-Fi adapters also work but USB uses more CPU which is a problem for high-bandwidth networking). Personally I just don't see the point of Wi-Fi for a stationary machine anyway - you're wasting valuable spectrum for something better served by an Ethernet cable (sourced from a powerline adapter if you're really desperate).
wtallis 4y ago
Every desktop motherboard on the market that has WiFi implements it by means of a M.2 2230 card inside a shield can that's screwed to the motherboard, with antenna connectors on pigtails coming out the side of the can to protrude through cutouts in the IO backplate. The WiFi is already a self-contained module with a standard hardware interface and its own FCC ID and certification. I don't recall ever seeing a motherboard include WiFi support in its UEFI firmware. So from the perspective of the motherboard manufacturer, WiFi is just a component they stick on the board and ship, with no regulatory overhead aside from duplicating the WiFi module's identifying information on a sticker that isn't hidden beneath the VRM heatsinks. The motherboard market really couldn't tolerate any wireless solution more complicated than that.