4 ms·

Can you elaborate on how it looks like I framed it to build more engagement?

extrememacaroni 4y ago
My man just look at the title, I clicked wondering if dall-e made better anime characters than $10 fiverr artists. But all I got was plots, who in their right mind asks for plots on fiverr. Am I being engaged right now, was your comment also to generate engagement.hm.
- aerovistae 4y ago
  I disagree and I downvoted you because I think you're being condescending and uncharitable. I don't think OP chose graphs because they're "obviously" going to make AI look bad; I think he chose it because it's an incredibly simple image - extremely so. If the AI can't do this, how can you trust it to generate something complex? If it literally can't yet draw basic lines as described, how can it illustrate a story or any form of media where specifics matter? And I don't think his post title implies that he was going to use some complex art prompt, either. Not in any way.
  - bawolff 4y ago
    His description of the graph was not simple. I had to read it twice to understand. Its multiple sentences being referential in complex ways. Its also an entirely different task than the one these AIs were designed to solve. Its like judging a fish by its ability to fly.
    - aerovistae 4y ago
      I agree that it's complex relative to what AI can currently handle (clearly) but I don't agree that it's complex in general. For a human, it's a simple description. You or I could draw it freehand correctly given 5 minutes, with no training or preparation. I don't see how this isn't the task these AIs are supposed to solve. They are meant to take a text description and output a corresponding visual result. This just demonstrates the narrow limits on the complexity of the input they can take. If you're saying they're not designed to deal with inputs more complex than one sentence, then sure, I guess I agree. But this post goes to show that if you require specificity in your desired visual output, then you need more than one sentence's worth of complexity, and therefore the current generation of AIs are not yet broadly usable. It's about illustrating the current limitations. This post is not implying that the technology is a failure or that it isn't enormous progress.
      - bawolff 4y ago
        > For a human, it's a simple description. You or I could draw it freehand correctly given 5 minutes, with no training or preparation. In the blog post, the humans drew it incorrectly as well (although they got closer). If it was as simple as you say it is, i would not expect the humans to err as well. > If you're saying they're not designed to deal with inputs more complex than one sentence, then sure, I guess I agree. Indeed. I would further say its not designed for someone to use it as text directed paintbrush. This is not surprising since human graphic artists dont work that way either, or at least get very pissed off when they are micro managed in that fashion. That said i think its also fairly obvious that these systems are also not replacements for graphic artists in general. The human element is important for a lot of reasons; graphic artists dont just "draw pictures". I dont think people seriously familiar with these systems have ever seriously suggested it was a full replacement for graphic artists, although in fairness random internet commentators certainly have been having a moral panic over it. Not to mention its entirely possible that an AI more designed for this task would do better. > But this post goes to show that if you require specificity in your desired visual output, then you need more than one sentence's worth of complexity, and therefore the current generation of AIs are not yet broadly usable. I don't really agree that this post showed that, but i would agree that these AIs are not the best tools if you have very specific objective requirements. AIs are tools not magic, there are things they are good at, but they aren't good at all the things and still require to be used with thought. > It's about illustrating the current limitations. This post is not implying that the technology is a failure or that it isn't enormous progress. I think the objection is that this article doesn't really demonstrate a meaningful limitation that wasn't obvious. It feels like a strawman. If dall-e or stable diffusion actually succeded at the task, i would be very impressed and consider it much more impressive than most of the pretty pictures everyone shows off.
  - optimalsolver 4y ago
    Apparently the human artists also had trouble understanding the prompt, which is why they kept missing details he specified.
  - Rioghasarig 4y ago
    If he didn't deliberately to make DALL-E look bad than he did it out of ignorance of what DALL-E's strengths and weaknesses are. Your evaluation of what is "simple" and what is "more complex" aren't in line with what DALL-E is capable of. DALL-E isn't good with symbols like letters and numbers. It can't do even very much logical / mathematical reasoning. So a graph is one of the worst choices. What it can do is make aesthetically pleasing images that match basic descriptions. So there are more "complex" images that DALL-E can produce than basic graphs.
TulliusCicero 4y ago
I think it's just that it's such a strange comparison to make, like making an article entitled, "Who's better at doing donuts in the parking lot: helicopters or planes?" The image generation models weren't trained on chart images, everyone already knows they're gonna be bad at that. Fiverr artists will obviously be better, though even then, who the hell is paying people on fiverr to draw generic charts? If you wanted to compare them, it would make more sense to compare them based on how they're actually used (especially in the case of the AI models): to make art. Though if your title was more specific, ala "DALL-E 2 vs $10 Fiverr Commissions: Who's Better at Charts?" you'd probably get somewhat fewer complaints. Having the title be generic implies that you're gonna be looking at common/primary use cases.
- amanuonsense 4y ago
  > The image generation models weren't trained on chart images, everyone already knows they're gonna be bad at that. Stable Diffusion was trained on images of charts and graphs. It knows what a powerpoint presentation and even an excel spreadsheet look like. Here: https://imgur.com/a/V4a6W4I https://imgur.com/a/V4a6W4I It just doesn't know how to generate a graph like the one it's asked to.
  - TulliusCicero 4y ago
    I'm not saying there were zero such images, but it obviously wasn't the focus compared to art-type images.
    - amanuonsense 4y ago
      What you said was that they weren't trained on chart images, not that they weren't the focus: > The image generation models weren't trained on chart images, everyone already knows they're gonna be bad at that. I have no idea how you could even know what was, or wasn't in those models training sets. Yet you posted with conviction as if you were sure you knew. What's the point of that? Edit - Also, what do you mean "it obviously wasn't the focus"? The focus of what? The focus of training, or the focus of presenting the results on social media?
jchw 4y ago
> Okay, well maybe it was impossible for anyone to deduce what I was trying to convey. Don't know if this is evidence of "framing for more engagement," but this line irks me. The latent diffusion models are pretty powerful, but I don't think there's anyone claiming that today's diffusion models are able to interpret complicated queries better than humans. The interesting part of diffusion models is that they can produce good results at all, not that they are better than humans. We're not in AGI territory. Even text models are still limited in many ways, and latent diffusion is highly reliant on the text model to produce good results. Even simpler queries can run into quite a lot of problems, that's exactly why a lot of people have been trying to figure out the best prompts to improve results.
nextaccountic 4y ago
You could have asked those tools to create images like the ones found in AI catalogs like https://lexica.art/ https://lexica.art/ and https://www.krea.ai/ https://www.krea.ai/ and then compared with what you can get for $10. This would be a comparison more favorable to AI

My man just look at the title, I clicked wondering if dall-e made better anime characters than $10 fiverr artists. But all I got was plots, who in their right mind asks for plots on fiverr. Am I being engaged right now, was your comment also to generate engagement.hm.

aerovistae 4y ago
I disagree and I downvoted you because I think you're being condescending and uncharitable. I don't think OP chose graphs because they're "obviously" going to make AI look bad; I think he chose it because it's an incredibly simple image - extremely so. If the AI can't do this, how can you trust it to generate something complex? If it literally can't yet draw basic lines as described, how can it illustrate a story or any form of media where specifics matter? And I don't think his post title implies that he was going to use some complex art prompt, either. Not in any way.
- bawolff 4y ago
  His description of the graph was not simple. I had to read it twice to understand. Its multiple sentences being referential in complex ways. Its also an entirely different task than the one these AIs were designed to solve. Its like judging a fish by its ability to fly.
  - aerovistae 4y ago
    I agree that it's complex relative to what AI can currently handle (clearly) but I don't agree that it's complex in general. For a human, it's a simple description. You or I could draw it freehand correctly given 5 minutes, with no training or preparation. I don't see how this isn't the task these AIs are supposed to solve. They are meant to take a text description and output a corresponding visual result. This just demonstrates the narrow limits on the complexity of the input they can take. If you're saying they're not designed to deal with inputs more complex than one sentence, then sure, I guess I agree. But this post goes to show that if you require specificity in your desired visual output, then you need more than one sentence's worth of complexity, and therefore the current generation of AIs are not yet broadly usable. It's about illustrating the current limitations. This post is not implying that the technology is a failure or that it isn't enormous progress.
    - bawolff 4y ago
      > For a human, it's a simple description. You or I could draw it freehand correctly given 5 minutes, with no training or preparation. In the blog post, the humans drew it incorrectly as well (although they got closer). If it was as simple as you say it is, i would not expect the humans to err as well. > If you're saying they're not designed to deal with inputs more complex than one sentence, then sure, I guess I agree. Indeed. I would further say its not designed for someone to use it as text directed paintbrush. This is not surprising since human graphic artists dont work that way either, or at least get very pissed off when they are micro managed in that fashion. That said i think its also fairly obvious that these systems are also not replacements for graphic artists in general. The human element is important for a lot of reasons; graphic artists dont just "draw pictures". I dont think people seriously familiar with these systems have ever seriously suggested it was a full replacement for graphic artists, although in fairness random internet commentators certainly have been having a moral panic over it. Not to mention its entirely possible that an AI more designed for this task would do better. > But this post goes to show that if you require specificity in your desired visual output, then you need more than one sentence's worth of complexity, and therefore the current generation of AIs are not yet broadly usable. I don't really agree that this post showed that, but i would agree that these AIs are not the best tools if you have very specific objective requirements. AIs are tools not magic, there are things they are good at, but they aren't good at all the things and still require to be used with thought. > It's about illustrating the current limitations. This post is not implying that the technology is a failure or that it isn't enormous progress. I think the objection is that this article doesn't really demonstrate a meaningful limitation that wasn't obvious. It feels like a strawman. If dall-e or stable diffusion actually succeded at the task, i would be very impressed and consider it much more impressive than most of the pretty pictures everyone shows off.
- optimalsolver 4y ago
  Apparently the human artists also had trouble understanding the prompt, which is why they kept missing details he specified.
- Rioghasarig 4y ago
  If he didn't deliberately to make DALL-E look bad than he did it out of ignorance of what DALL-E's strengths and weaknesses are. Your evaluation of what is "simple" and what is "more complex" aren't in line with what DALL-E is capable of. DALL-E isn't good with symbols like letters and numbers. It can't do even very much logical / mathematical reasoning. So a graph is one of the worst choices. What it can do is make aesthetically pleasing images that match basic descriptions. So there are more "complex" images that DALL-E can produce than basic graphs.

TulliusCicero 4y ago

I think it's just that it's such a strange comparison to make, like making an article entitled, "Who's better at doing donuts in the parking lot: helicopters or planes?" The image generation models weren't trained on chart images, everyone already knows they're gonna be bad at that. Fiverr artists will obviously be better, though even then, who the hell is paying people on fiverr to draw generic charts? If you wanted to compare them, it would make more sense to compare them based on how they're actually used (especially in the case of the AI models): to make art. Though if your title was more specific, ala "DALL-E 2 vs $10 Fiverr Commissions: Who's Better at Charts?" you'd probably get somewhat fewer complaints. Having the title be generic implies that you're gonna be looking at common/primary use cases.

amanuonsense 4y ago
> The image generation models weren't trained on chart images, everyone already knows they're gonna be bad at that. Stable Diffusion was trained on images of charts and graphs. It knows what a powerpoint presentation and even an excel spreadsheet look like. Here: https://imgur.com/a/V4a6W4I https://imgur.com/a/V4a6W4I It just doesn't know how to generate a graph like the one it's asked to.
- TulliusCicero 4y ago
  I'm not saying there were zero such images, but it obviously wasn't the focus compared to art-type images.
  - amanuonsense 4y ago
    What you said was that they weren't trained on chart images, not that they weren't the focus: > The image generation models weren't trained on chart images, everyone already knows they're gonna be bad at that. I have no idea how you could even know what was, or wasn't in those models training sets. Yet you posted with conviction as if you were sure you knew. What's the point of that? Edit - Also, what do you mean "it obviously wasn't the focus"? The focus of what? The focus of training, or the focus of presenting the results on social media?

jchw 4y ago

> Okay, well maybe it was impossible for anyone to deduce what I was trying to convey. Don't know if this is evidence of "framing for more engagement," but this line irks me. The latent diffusion models are pretty powerful, but I don't think there's anyone claiming that today's diffusion models are able to interpret complicated queries better than humans. The interesting part of diffusion models is that they can produce good results at all, not that they are better than humans. We're not in AGI territory. Even text models are still limited in many ways, and latent diffusion is highly reliant on the text model to produce good results. Even simpler queries can run into quite a lot of problems, that's exactly why a lot of people have been trying to figure out the best prompts to improve results.

nextaccountic 4y ago

You could have asked those tools to create images like the ones found in AI catalogs like https://lexica.art/ https://lexica.art/ and https://www.krea.ai/ https://www.krea.ai/ and then compared with what you can get for $10. This would be a comparison more favorable to AI