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Lol We have no effective way of storing energy. If you only want energy on sunny windy days during daytime, this is fine. Enjoy the power going out at night an

Lol We have no effective way of storing energy. If you only want energy on sunny windy days during daytime, this is fine. Enjoy the power going out at night and when the wind slows down. Hopefully we will get much cheaper storage and production soon, but it's not completely viable now.

kitkat_new 4y ago
there are effective ways of storing energy, but there isn't a silver bullet that has high efficiency, low cost, long storage duration and high storage capacity
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Cost competition is biggest aspect in my mind. Is the storage competitive compared to alternative if power is free is good benchmark in my mind to start with. And what are political and ecological implications of them. As I doubt even the Greens prepared to build up most effective pumped hydro locations anymore. Effectively flooding quite large areas. And also I take there is questions where to get the water from in parts of the world...
  - kitkat_new 4y ago
    Cost must include environmental costs such as direct destruction of the environment and greenhouse gas emissions. Competition on the basis of today's market prices which don't include this, is nonsense.
- nuancebydefault 4y ago
  Energy storage is a part of the problem. The good thing is, if we combine multiple energy production methods and connect it to a smarter grid with a smarter consumption profile, we can do with storing much less. The solutions are already known and are feasible. The ultimate problem is, the transition takes a lot of time, certainly given it needs to be smooth, we don't want too many outages. And we seem be be running out of time.
natch 4y ago
We can store plenty of energy in car batteries as EVs become more common. And that is energy that whether it’s available for putting back in the grid or not, (usually not, which is fine) replaces a gas pump.
- SideQuark 4y ago
  Take number of cars, multiply by storage capacity of an EV battery, compare to daily energy requirements, fall incredibly short. This is not a solution.
  - kitkat_new 4y ago
    not to mention given today's technology and growing opposition to car centric cities, there won't ever be as many BEVs as there are cars today.
    - natch 4y ago
      Fewer cars, less need for energy. It works out, so no problem even if your theory is correct.
  - natch 4y ago
    So are you claiming it’s not part of the solution? If not, then what is your point?
    - SideQuark 4y ago
      It's clearly not part of the solution as napkin math demonstrates, and that's not even including losses into and out of the batteries, which pushes the numbers into the realm of ludicrous. If you want to argue otherwise, demonstrate it with an estimate of the energy amounts used. Because I did the check. I don't think you have.
      - natch 4y ago
        The energy is used to drive the cars, replacing gasoline. I suspect your napkin math is probably calculating a different use case which is not the most common intended use case of car batteries, but rather, if even practical at all, only a trifling convenience, the scale of which will be lost in the noise when compared to actual driving usage. Again, what was your point?
sschueller 4y ago
We can fill large water dams and store energy easily that way. This is what Switzerland is focusing on right now to make sure they have enough stored power for January and February when production doesn't suffice the requirements and purchasing electricity from abroad may not be possible.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Do we have locations we haven't build those yet? Is there any concerns about building there? Environmental or existing communities? Where to get the water to fill those? Does that have effect downstream? If it is build on existing rivers, is there some minimum amount of water that has to be passed? Or maximum capacity after water has to be passed?
  - sschueller 4y ago
    All valid concerns but if you can find a location that has a small impact on the environment it is hugely beneficial.
timbit42 4y ago
It can be stored as heat in stone or sand. There are companies building and selling both solutions. They hold the heat for months, long enough to last through a winter.
- dublin 4y ago
  It appears you haven't taken a thermodynamics or heat transfer class: Heat has a property called "quality", and low quality (roughly, low-temperature) heat such as you're describing is not really useful for much outside of warming water a bit - you're certainly not going to be generating power that way! All current heat engines as defined by the 2nd law of thermodynamics require a DELTA T to run, and the small delta T provided by low-quality heat sources cannot generate much power, and drastically slashes the efficiency possible from the system. (Interestingly, there does appear to be a part of the 2nd law which only applies in the quantum realm and has no classical heat engine analog - if that turns out to be true, then it changes things up quite a bit...)

kitkat_new 4y ago

there are effective ways of storing energy, but there isn't a silver bullet that has high efficiency, low cost, long storage duration and high storage capacity

Ekaros 4y ago
Cost competition is biggest aspect in my mind. Is the storage competitive compared to alternative if power is free is good benchmark in my mind to start with. And what are political and ecological implications of them. As I doubt even the Greens prepared to build up most effective pumped hydro locations anymore. Effectively flooding quite large areas. And also I take there is questions where to get the water from in parts of the world...
- kitkat_new 4y ago
  Cost must include environmental costs such as direct destruction of the environment and greenhouse gas emissions. Competition on the basis of today's market prices which don't include this, is nonsense.
nuancebydefault 4y ago
Energy storage is a part of the problem. The good thing is, if we combine multiple energy production methods and connect it to a smarter grid with a smarter consumption profile, we can do with storing much less. The solutions are already known and are feasible. The ultimate problem is, the transition takes a lot of time, certainly given it needs to be smooth, we don't want too many outages. And we seem be be running out of time.

natch 4y ago

We can store plenty of energy in car batteries as EVs become more common. And that is energy that whether it’s available for putting back in the grid or not, (usually not, which is fine) replaces a gas pump.

SideQuark 4y ago
Take number of cars, multiply by storage capacity of an EV battery, compare to daily energy requirements, fall incredibly short. This is not a solution.
- kitkat_new 4y ago
  not to mention given today's technology and growing opposition to car centric cities, there won't ever be as many BEVs as there are cars today.
  - natch 4y ago
    Fewer cars, less need for energy. It works out, so no problem even if your theory is correct.
- natch 4y ago
  So are you claiming it’s not part of the solution? If not, then what is your point?
  - SideQuark 4y ago
    It's clearly not part of the solution as napkin math demonstrates, and that's not even including losses into and out of the batteries, which pushes the numbers into the realm of ludicrous. If you want to argue otherwise, demonstrate it with an estimate of the energy amounts used. Because I did the check. I don't think you have.
    - natch 4y ago
      The energy is used to drive the cars, replacing gasoline. I suspect your napkin math is probably calculating a different use case which is not the most common intended use case of car batteries, but rather, if even practical at all, only a trifling convenience, the scale of which will be lost in the noise when compared to actual driving usage. Again, what was your point?

sschueller 4y ago

We can fill large water dams and store energy easily that way. This is what Switzerland is focusing on right now to make sure they have enough stored power for January and February when production doesn't suffice the requirements and purchasing electricity from abroad may not be possible.

Ekaros 4y ago
Do we have locations we haven't build those yet? Is there any concerns about building there? Environmental or existing communities? Where to get the water to fill those? Does that have effect downstream? If it is build on existing rivers, is there some minimum amount of water that has to be passed? Or maximum capacity after water has to be passed?
- sschueller 4y ago
  All valid concerns but if you can find a location that has a small impact on the environment it is hugely beneficial.

timbit42 4y ago

It can be stored as heat in stone or sand. There are companies building and selling both solutions. They hold the heat for months, long enough to last through a winter.

dublin 4y ago
It appears you haven't taken a thermodynamics or heat transfer class: Heat has a property called "quality", and low quality (roughly, low-temperature) heat such as you're describing is not really useful for much outside of warming water a bit - you're certainly not going to be generating power that way! All current heat engines as defined by the 2nd law of thermodynamics require a DELTA T to run, and the small delta T provided by low-quality heat sources cannot generate much power, and drastically slashes the efficiency possible from the system. (Interestingly, there does appear to be a part of the 2nd law which only applies in the quantum realm and has no classical heat engine analog - if that turns out to be true, then it changes things up quite a bit...)