4 ms·

If this is the situation why isn't any country just unilaterally going for it?

by benj111 4y ago

klyrs 4y ago
cui bono, indeed
mrob 4y ago
The next election is less than 6 years away.
- nayuki 4y ago
  Not in a dictatorship.
- makomk 4y ago
  This isn't an explanation at all. I can tell you that, for example, the UK's renewable energy push is operating on a timescale rather longer than that - a good six years elapsed just between the government deciding to focus on offshore wind and the industry getting good enough to build it that it was cheaper than onshore (something which was predicted at the time) and it'll be a few more years before enough is built that we get substantial benefit from those lower costs. The more likely explanation is that it just isn't as easy as they're claiming. Admittedly, the government here seems to be getting zero benefit politically or in the public opinion from that long term planning.
ceejayoz 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_renewable_electricity_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_renewable... 12 countries are listed as over 90% renewable currently. Iceland at 100%; Norway at 97.2%.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Ah hydro... Explains most cases, not really realistic in others. Though there is some interesting cases, but likely even those are hard to replicate.
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    Sure. You do hydro in Norway. Solar in Spain. Wind in the North Sea. Geothermal in Iceland. Different places, different forms of generation. Trade regionally for redundancy. The question was “why isn’t anyone doing it”; the answer is “they are”.
    - Ekaros 4y ago
      But other than hydro and geothermal do those run 24/7/365? And is the storage in place? Or do they rely on some others to fullfil those? What if that isn't an option lets say middle of desert?
      - natch 4y ago
        Yes, wind runs 24/7/365. And cars have their own storage, so that's solved for cars at least. Let's say in the middle of the desert… Well, if there are no people there, then perhaps there is no need for power. And if there are people, they can choose to live a primitive lifestyle, or they can buy batteries and solar panels and wind generators, or (shocker) they can continue to use petroleum products for energy, that is also an option even if the world switches to renewable energy.
      - ceejayoz 4y ago
        Wind runs at night. Solar doesn't, but demand is correspondingly lower at night, too. Storage will evolve as the need evolves, just like cell phone batteries did.
        dublin 4y ago
        I call B.S. There is NO reason to believe this. Unrealistic confidence in the progress of battery technology is not new - it's been the state of things for well over a century now. (See Edison's Nickel-Iron battery, for one...) Sometimes real breakthroughs are required in science, engineering, or both. In the case of really useful batteries, which we do NOT have today, it's definitely both. These BREAKTHROUGHS (not incremental improvements!) are REQUIRED to do the things envisioned in the article. These breakthroughs may come tomorrow, OR we may be in the same situation with battery technology that we are with nuclear fusion: It's the energy of the future, and always will be - We've been "only 30 years away" from a fusion breakthrough and "power too cheap to meter" for at least 75 years now!
- digianarchist 4y ago
  If Norway included carbon exports then it wouldn't be anywhere near 97%.
- TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
  Norway has hundreds of fjords, which can be dammed. It is hard to compete with that for example for Poland.
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    What fjords has Norway needed to dam to reach their current 97% rate?
gehsty 4y ago
Denmark in particular is, but lots of European countries are. Reality is it takes time to align markets, development permits and supply chains with government policies…
sveme 4y ago
All studies that I read about 100% reneweables point out that you need a large, meteorologically diverse catchment area and a highly interconnected grid. That will balance out local fluctuations and will massively reduce the need for storage. Problem is, it will require lots of countries to cooperate - except if you are a very large country. The US should be able with its coastlines, deserts, hydropower and so forth.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Also that is rather worrying scenario looking back at USA attacks on NS pipelines. What if the target where these grid interconnects? That would be catastrophic.

If this is the situation why isn't any country just unilaterally going for it?

klyrs 4y ago

cui bono, indeed

mrob 4y ago

The next election is less than 6 years away.

nayuki 4y ago
Not in a dictatorship.
makomk 4y ago
This isn't an explanation at all. I can tell you that, for example, the UK's renewable energy push is operating on a timescale rather longer than that - a good six years elapsed just between the government deciding to focus on offshore wind and the industry getting good enough to build it that it was cheaper than onshore (something which was predicted at the time) and it'll be a few more years before enough is built that we get substantial benefit from those lower costs. The more likely explanation is that it just isn't as easy as they're claiming. Admittedly, the government here seems to be getting zero benefit politically or in the public opinion from that long term planning.

ceejayoz 4y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_renewable_electricity_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_renewable... 12 countries are listed as over 90% renewable currently. Iceland at 100%; Norway at 97.2%.

Ekaros 4y ago
Ah hydro... Explains most cases, not really realistic in others. Though there is some interesting cases, but likely even those are hard to replicate.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  Sure. You do hydro in Norway. Solar in Spain. Wind in the North Sea. Geothermal in Iceland. Different places, different forms of generation. Trade regionally for redundancy. The question was “why isn’t anyone doing it”; the answer is “they are”.
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    But other than hydro and geothermal do those run 24/7/365? And is the storage in place? Or do they rely on some others to fullfil those? What if that isn't an option lets say middle of desert?
    - natch 4y ago
      Yes, wind runs 24/7/365. And cars have their own storage, so that's solved for cars at least. Let's say in the middle of the desert… Well, if there are no people there, then perhaps there is no need for power. And if there are people, they can choose to live a primitive lifestyle, or they can buy batteries and solar panels and wind generators, or (shocker) they can continue to use petroleum products for energy, that is also an option even if the world switches to renewable energy.
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      Wind runs at night. Solar doesn't, but demand is correspondingly lower at night, too. Storage will evolve as the need evolves, just like cell phone batteries did.
      - dublin 4y ago
        I call B.S. There is NO reason to believe this. Unrealistic confidence in the progress of battery technology is not new - it's been the state of things for well over a century now. (See Edison's Nickel-Iron battery, for one...) Sometimes real breakthroughs are required in science, engineering, or both. In the case of really useful batteries, which we do NOT have today, it's definitely both. These BREAKTHROUGHS (not incremental improvements!) are REQUIRED to do the things envisioned in the article. These breakthroughs may come tomorrow, OR we may be in the same situation with battery technology that we are with nuclear fusion: It's the energy of the future, and always will be - We've been "only 30 years away" from a fusion breakthrough and "power too cheap to meter" for at least 75 years now!
digianarchist 4y ago
If Norway included carbon exports then it wouldn't be anywhere near 97%.
TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
Norway has hundreds of fjords, which can be dammed. It is hard to compete with that for example for Poland.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  What fjords has Norway needed to dam to reach their current 97% rate?

gehsty 4y ago

Denmark in particular is, but lots of European countries are. Reality is it takes time to align markets, development permits and supply chains with government policies…

sveme 4y ago

All studies that I read about 100% reneweables point out that you need a large, meteorologically diverse catchment area and a highly interconnected grid. That will balance out local fluctuations and will massively reduce the need for storage. Problem is, it will require lots of countries to cooperate - except if you are a very large country. The US should be able with its coastlines, deserts, hydropower and so forth.

Ekaros 4y ago
Also that is rather worrying scenario looking back at USA attacks on NS pipelines. What if the target where these grid interconnects? That would be catastrophic.