4 ms·

The more emulation becomes mainstream the more money Nintendo will invest to illegalize it. You cannot legally get roms of commercial games, even if you own the

The more emulation becomes mainstream the more money Nintendo will invest to illegalize it. You cannot legally get roms of commercial games, even if you own the game. Breaking of DRM is automatically copyright infringement according to the DMCA.

wudangmonk 4y ago
They can invest in it but they cannot predict the outcome. I'd like to see DMCA go up against property rights.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  It is a big gamble. I mean, if any company can pull it off now, it is Steam. It has money, position and fairly vocal customer base, but are you sure this would be enough to stave off a relentless swarm of lobbyists descending upon WH?
wildzzz 4y ago
If there is a way to make a backup of a game you own while still preserving whatever DRM exists, it would be legal. Like if you had some device that could dump the contents of the Switch cartridge without cracking any DRM, then your backups would be legal. The hard part is that "cracking DRM" could mean anything since it could be construed that any sort of electronic signals between your backup device and the cart that emulates a retail Switch is bypassing DRM. Ripping a CD or making a completely intact copy of retail software are probably the only legitimate backups you can make without technically breaking the law. Really the only "legal" thing you could do with Yuzu is to play homebrew. It would be like owning a really fancy bong in a country where weed is illegal, surely you could put legal tobacco in it but it really works a lot better with weed.
A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
I will admit that I am mildly concerned with this myself. I dislike that everywhere now there are youtube videos showing off how you can make play Switch games, but on Deck. We are effectively forcing Nintendo's hands. While it was a niche thing, they mostly didn't have to care and now they might have to.. Things MAY work out to the benefit of regular users ( though often they work out to the benefit of those with best lawyers ). All I am saying is, if push comes to shove, as much as I would like to believe Gabe will actually fight this should Nintendo go after them somehow ( and I will actually spend money on Steam to fund it if needed ), it would have been so much better if it stayed a hobbyist thing. Edit: And for the record. I love my Deck. I love that in the sea of closed off crap, Steam made it all this magic come together.
- p1necone 4y ago
  Emulation hasn't been a niche thing since the 90s, emulating older systems has always been wildly popular. Emulating the Switch specifically is maybe a niche thing because the emulators are relatively new, the system is still sold and you can easily buy the games.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
    Yes, but in the 90s there were no esports, gaming wasn't a billion dollar industry ( with advertising[1] to support that ). <<Emulation hasn't been a niche thing since the 90s, emulating older systems has always been wildly popular. Compared to today it was popular amongst some enthusiasts, who already self-selected from perceived social outcasts. Gaming has only recently become more mainstream, socially acceptable AND ridiculously profitable. The target is that much bigger. I stand by my 'it used to be a niche', because even being interested in computers was not a mainstream interest. [1]https://www.gameskinny.com/ggtms/10-best-video-game-commercials-in-the-super-bowl https://www.gameskinny.com/ggtms/10-best-video-game-commerci... edit: Seems I was off with a billion number, but it is still nowhere near 2017's 100b global video game industry estimate. [2]https://vgsales.fandom.com/wiki/Video_game_industry https://vgsales.fandom.com/wiki/Video_game_industry
  - jrm4 4y ago
    Ironic given how many Switch games are old games and/or games for other systems.
- jrm4 4y ago
  This attitude of "fearing Nintendo" strikes me as incredibly weird. Force 'em, who cares? That's competition. Love the Wii, but also it's obviously that they've had to make some terrible deals with the devil for the Switch. And this is because Steam's model is broadly superior, for the simple fact that respects both creators and users autonomy more. Nintendo can catch up to the times or Nintendo can get it's lunch eaten. But that's on them.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
scheeseman486 4y ago
This is a very hazy area, made more hazy by the main method of getting games off of a Switch being a dev mode implemented by the hardware designers at Nintendo/Nvidia that is enabled by bridging two pins on the JoyCon connector which completely bypasses the DRM. Is using hardware features as designed "breaking" DRM? Hard to make that argument when they left the door wide open, unlocked and trivial to use.
- danhor 4y ago
  There's also an exploit in the USB stack of the boot ROM involved, so it's not quite "using it as intended". I'd argue ntrboot on 3DS is much closer to what you're suggesting, using a built-in repair access mechanism dependent on long(er) broken crypto.
- zerocrates 4y ago
  The DMCA's language is something like "circumventing an effective technological restriction," but I don't think "effective" really gets much juice. Like, despite the total brokenness of DVD CSS by now, it's still going to be "effective." On the other hand "circumvention" sweeps up conduct that just bypasses DRM rather than actually breaking it. Edit: for accuracy, it's "circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access" to a copyrighted work.
Gigachad 4y ago
The DMCA does not exist in all countries. It's perfectly legal to break DRM in many places.
- devwastaken 4y ago
  And? Valve is U.S. based, as are most of its users given the cost of hardware in u.s. dollars is out of reach of most of the world.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

wudangmonk 4y ago

They can invest in it but they cannot predict the outcome. I'd like to see DMCA go up against property rights.

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
It is a big gamble. I mean, if any company can pull it off now, it is Steam. It has money, position and fairly vocal customer base, but are you sure this would be enough to stave off a relentless swarm of lobbyists descending upon WH?

wildzzz 4y ago

If there is a way to make a backup of a game you own while still preserving whatever DRM exists, it would be legal. Like if you had some device that could dump the contents of the Switch cartridge without cracking any DRM, then your backups would be legal. The hard part is that "cracking DRM" could mean anything since it could be construed that any sort of electronic signals between your backup device and the cart that emulates a retail Switch is bypassing DRM. Ripping a CD or making a completely intact copy of retail software are probably the only legitimate backups you can make without technically breaking the law. Really the only "legal" thing you could do with Yuzu is to play homebrew. It would be like owning a really fancy bong in a country where weed is illegal, surely you could put legal tobacco in it but it really works a lot better with weed.

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago

I will admit that I am mildly concerned with this myself. I dislike that everywhere now there are youtube videos showing off how you can make play Switch games, but on Deck. We are effectively forcing Nintendo's hands. While it was a niche thing, they mostly didn't have to care and now they might have to.. Things MAY work out to the benefit of regular users ( though often they work out to the benefit of those with best lawyers ). All I am saying is, if push comes to shove, as much as I would like to believe Gabe will actually fight this should Nintendo go after them somehow ( and I will actually spend money on Steam to fund it if needed ), it would have been so much better if it stayed a hobbyist thing. Edit: And for the record. I love my Deck. I love that in the sea of closed off crap, Steam made it all this magic come together.

p1necone 4y ago
Emulation hasn't been a niche thing since the 90s, emulating older systems has always been wildly popular. Emulating the Switch specifically is maybe a niche thing because the emulators are relatively new, the system is still sold and you can easily buy the games.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  Yes, but in the 90s there were no esports, gaming wasn't a billion dollar industry ( with advertising[1] to support that ). <<Emulation hasn't been a niche thing since the 90s, emulating older systems has always been wildly popular. Compared to today it was popular amongst some enthusiasts, who already self-selected from perceived social outcasts. Gaming has only recently become more mainstream, socially acceptable AND ridiculously profitable. The target is that much bigger. I stand by my 'it used to be a niche', because even being interested in computers was not a mainstream interest. [1]https://www.gameskinny.com/ggtms/10-best-video-game-commercials-in-the-super-bowl https://www.gameskinny.com/ggtms/10-best-video-game-commerci... edit: Seems I was off with a billion number, but it is still nowhere near 2017's 100b global video game industry estimate. [2]https://vgsales.fandom.com/wiki/Video_game_industry https://vgsales.fandom.com/wiki/Video_game_industry
- jrm4 4y ago
  Ironic given how many Switch games are old games and/or games for other systems.
jrm4 4y ago
This attitude of "fearing Nintendo" strikes me as incredibly weird. Force 'em, who cares? That's competition. Love the Wii, but also it's obviously that they've had to make some terrible deals with the devil for the Switch. And this is because Steam's model is broadly superior, for the simple fact that respects both creators and users autonomy more. Nintendo can catch up to the times or Nintendo can get it's lunch eaten. But that's on them.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago

scheeseman486 4y ago

This is a very hazy area, made more hazy by the main method of getting games off of a Switch being a dev mode implemented by the hardware designers at Nintendo/Nvidia that is enabled by bridging two pins on the JoyCon connector which completely bypasses the DRM. Is using hardware features as designed "breaking" DRM? Hard to make that argument when they left the door wide open, unlocked and trivial to use.

danhor 4y ago
There's also an exploit in the USB stack of the boot ROM involved, so it's not quite "using it as intended". I'd argue ntrboot on 3DS is much closer to what you're suggesting, using a built-in repair access mechanism dependent on long(er) broken crypto.
zerocrates 4y ago
The DMCA's language is something like "circumventing an effective technological restriction," but I don't think "effective" really gets much juice. Like, despite the total brokenness of DVD CSS by now, it's still going to be "effective." On the other hand "circumvention" sweeps up conduct that just bypasses DRM rather than actually breaking it. Edit: for accuracy, it's "circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access" to a copyrighted work.

Gigachad 4y ago

The DMCA does not exist in all countries. It's perfectly legal to break DRM in many places.

devwastaken 4y ago
And? Valve is U.S. based, as are most of its users given the cost of hardware in u.s. dollars is out of reach of most of the world.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]