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Your entire argument rests on conflating law with ethics. Those are very much not the same thing. We can go through a litany of old laws that were unethical,

Your entire argument rests on conflating law with ethics. Those are very much not the same thing. We can go through a litany of old laws that were unethical, and suggesting that those who lacked the ability to change those laws were thus morally subject to them is not only false, but extremely unethical.

ModernMech 4y ago
Who lacks the ability to change the laws? Laws are changed all the time and there’s a process to do so. It seems that people here just want to do whatever they want, and I’ve yet to hear an ethical argument as to why that’s okay. The main argument seems to be that people don’t want to watch ads, which… okay, don’t watch ads then. But that doesn’t mean you just get to do whatever you want contrary to established law. There’s plenty of ad free media out there you can buy to satisfy your need for media. Imagine if you managed to change the law and the companies decided to do whatever they wanted regardless. I’m sure you would complain about that, yes?
- Retric 4y ago
  Wow, I didn’t realize I had that power. I declare all copyright laws are hereby abolished. Of course laws are actually imposed on others, which is why they have zero moral weight. Laws are simply an imperfect reflection of society and all it’s issues. PS: Do you think companies actually follow the all laws as written?
  - ModernMech 4y ago
    Are you eligible to vote? Can you run for Congress? Can you get involved in politics? If yes, that’s the power you have. In America, laws aren’t imposed, they are implemented via a democratic process, and that’s what gives them moral weight. Maybe in your country if things are different you might have a point. To your PS, I do believe companies break the law, and I complain just as much when they do. IMO anyone pirating content, on some perceived notion that they are acting ethically, lose all standing to complain about lawbreaking by corporations or others who may rationalize breaking the law under their own ethical framework (e.g. it’s ethical to break the law if it means more profit for myself).
    - Retric 4y ago
      > and I complain just as much when they do. That’s a mismatch between how you want the world to work and how the world actually works. If you realize companies are going to ignore the law then getting update about it is no more rational than complaining about gravity. > In America, laws aren’t imposed, they are implemented via a democratic process Being the outcome of a democratic process doesn’t somehow prevent them from being imposed. As to voting or running for congress, residents of DC elect a non voting member of congress which has exactly as much power as you might imagine. They then can’t create local laws without approval from the members of congress who can actually vote. Congratulations, you are a member of the least democratic democracy in the world today. So even by your standards it’s laws have no moral weight.
      - ModernMech 4y ago
        All I’m hearing are justifications and rationalizations for lawlessness and selfishness. At least corporations are transparent about their motives - greed. With piracy, the pretzels people twist themselves into in order to justify their actions are astounding to me. Why can’t any of there pirates here admit they are just selfish and feel like they are above the law? At least it would be honest.
        Retric 4y ago
        There is nothing selfish in doing things that harm nobody. I am very much in favor of abolishing copyright because of the vast harm it causes society rather than any personal benefit. When Disney appropriates old stories and adds a feel good spin people get even further from reality and the valuable lessons these stories could actually teach. Now magnify that across every medium and it’s no wonder people have become so utterly divorced from reality. Trying to dismiss arguments without backing them up just shows how hollow your argument is.
        ModernMech 4y ago
        You have decided for yourself that what you are doing doesn’t harm anybody, which is very convenient for you. Others have decided that’s not the case, and went through the democratic process to enshrine their position into law. As far as I’m concerned, their position is far more legitimate than yours, because they followed the law and Constitution. You, on the other hand, rationalize lawlessness and selfishness and do whatever you want. I’m actually in favor of drastically limiting copyright. But when pirates engage in such lawless behavior and rationalizations, it makes the idea almost impossible as a credible political project. Piracy does far more harm to reforming copyright than you apparently can see. You’ll never be able to build a political coalition through insolence. Because I can guarantee you, the insolence doesn’t end even if copyright was successfully reformed to meet your expectations. Pirates would still engage in piracy, because it’s never been about principles; it’s about pirates not wanting to pay money for things they want. They would still rationalize their behavior with self-serving notions like “I’m not hurting anyone”.

ModernMech 4y ago

Who lacks the ability to change the laws? Laws are changed all the time and there’s a process to do so. It seems that people here just want to do whatever they want, and I’ve yet to hear an ethical argument as to why that’s okay. The main argument seems to be that people don’t want to watch ads, which… okay, don’t watch ads then. But that doesn’t mean you just get to do whatever you want contrary to established law. There’s plenty of ad free media out there you can buy to satisfy your need for media. Imagine if you managed to change the law and the companies decided to do whatever they wanted regardless. I’m sure you would complain about that, yes?

Retric 4y ago
Wow, I didn’t realize I had that power. I declare all copyright laws are hereby abolished. Of course laws are actually imposed on others, which is why they have zero moral weight. Laws are simply an imperfect reflection of society and all it’s issues. PS: Do you think companies actually follow the all laws as written?
- ModernMech 4y ago
  Are you eligible to vote? Can you run for Congress? Can you get involved in politics? If yes, that’s the power you have. In America, laws aren’t imposed, they are implemented via a democratic process, and that’s what gives them moral weight. Maybe in your country if things are different you might have a point. To your PS, I do believe companies break the law, and I complain just as much when they do. IMO anyone pirating content, on some perceived notion that they are acting ethically, lose all standing to complain about lawbreaking by corporations or others who may rationalize breaking the law under their own ethical framework (e.g. it’s ethical to break the law if it means more profit for myself).
  - Retric 4y ago
    > and I complain just as much when they do. That’s a mismatch between how you want the world to work and how the world actually works. If you realize companies are going to ignore the law then getting update about it is no more rational than complaining about gravity. > In America, laws aren’t imposed, they are implemented via a democratic process Being the outcome of a democratic process doesn’t somehow prevent them from being imposed. As to voting or running for congress, residents of DC elect a non voting member of congress which has exactly as much power as you might imagine. They then can’t create local laws without approval from the members of congress who can actually vote. Congratulations, you are a member of the least democratic democracy in the world today. So even by your standards it’s laws have no moral weight.
    - ModernMech 4y ago
      All I’m hearing are justifications and rationalizations for lawlessness and selfishness. At least corporations are transparent about their motives - greed. With piracy, the pretzels people twist themselves into in order to justify their actions are astounding to me. Why can’t any of there pirates here admit they are just selfish and feel like they are above the law? At least it would be honest.
      - Retric 4y ago
        There is nothing selfish in doing things that harm nobody. I am very much in favor of abolishing copyright because of the vast harm it causes society rather than any personal benefit. When Disney appropriates old stories and adds a feel good spin people get even further from reality and the valuable lessons these stories could actually teach. Now magnify that across every medium and it’s no wonder people have become so utterly divorced from reality. Trying to dismiss arguments without backing them up just shows how hollow your argument is.
        ModernMech 4y ago
        You have decided for yourself that what you are doing doesn’t harm anybody, which is very convenient for you. Others have decided that’s not the case, and went through the democratic process to enshrine their position into law. As far as I’m concerned, their position is far more legitimate than yours, because they followed the law and Constitution. You, on the other hand, rationalize lawlessness and selfishness and do whatever you want. I’m actually in favor of drastically limiting copyright. But when pirates engage in such lawless behavior and rationalizations, it makes the idea almost impossible as a credible political project. Piracy does far more harm to reforming copyright than you apparently can see. You’ll never be able to build a political coalition through insolence. Because I can guarantee you, the insolence doesn’t end even if copyright was successfully reformed to meet your expectations. Pirates would still engage in piracy, because it’s never been about principles; it’s about pirates not wanting to pay money for things they want. They would still rationalize their behavior with self-serving notions like “I’m not hurting anyone”.