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no such thing as frontend development. only full stack. and react for all the trillions of words written about it, what can you actually do with it? not much.

no such thing as frontend development. only full stack. and react for all the trillions of words written about it, what can you actually do with it? not much. also it's over-saturated as hell. you think there's high demand, you're right, now try applying for a position and see how it goes. there are two types of roles in modern web dev: 1 .90% of jobs are code monkey work: extremely saturated, you are competing with global workforce who will work for half your salary or less. i will get downvoted, probably cos there so many bootcampers and others who don't like to hear this reality. 2. 10% of jobs at top tier tech companies that pay the top salaries. good luck with the 10 stage interviews, aptitude exam, leetcoding and then getting ghosted. the complexity itself just comes from the amount of steps required to do something trivial: 2010 edit an html button: 1. pull the file from ftp or sourcesafe/svn 2. edit the button 3. upload to ftp 2020 edit an html button: 1. install git 2. install npm, node 3. clone and install the code 4. deal with myriad node js errors 5. deal with myriad deprecation warnings and other issues in npm 6. start local environment 6.1 local requires docker 6.2 install docker 6.3 try to start docker 7. docker requires sudo 8. request sudo from IT 9. fill a form explaining why you need sudo 10. install docker 11. start the local environment 12. edit the html button 13. local server not refreshing 14. fix local tooling issues 15. commit changes 16. your changes are 10 commits behind the branch 17. try to merge automatically, cannot be merged 18. make a PR 19. smug know it all "senior" developer with 2 years experiences, gives a bunch of nitpicky comments on the PR and refuses to merge it 20. go back to step 6

gtsop 4y ago
A couple builders were complaining why they couldn't build houses like in the old days when you would slap 2 blocks of wood together and call it a day. now you have to use steel, heatproof it, soundproof it, check the integrity of the build, submit designs, take safety into account, what a waste... obviously sarcastic. most of the things you are complaining about bring to mind a person who is bored of doing responsible coding.
bluefirebrand 4y ago
> request sudo from IT If you work for a company that doesn't give you Sudo on your own machine as a developer by default, find a new job Don't work for companies that still treat their professionals like children.
- peatfreak 4y ago
  Easier said than done. This style of doing things is very common in large corporate environments such as financial services. The first time anybody works at a place like this they are shocked by all the IT red tape, but it's an interesting (and frustrating) rite of passage. It takes maturity and experience to understand that there is always a reason for "stupid" complications.
  - jitl 4y ago
    These organization should change their infosec posture to support sudo on dev machines as standard issue, especially if you’re issuing laptops. Maybe I’m immature but I’d prefer not to suffer as such for the sake of a “rite of passage” from ages past.
    - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
      Some organizations still haven’t adjusted their infosec posture to allow git, let alone sudo.
  - oneplane 4y ago
    I think it's very easy to not work there, just leave and don't go back. I suspect most people that stick around either don't know any better or do it for the money/status/whatever and not for the technology.
- rzimmerman 4y ago
  Absolutely unacceptable to not give a developer local root on their own machine. Manage profiles and install logging all you want, but requiring a developer to ask permission to install docker/git/tools they need is not security, it's incompetence. If your employer won't give you the tools you need to do your job you should find another one. If your IT/security department is there to block you instead of help you get work done, you should also find a new job. I'm not saying walk out the door today, just that you don't deserve to be treated like that.
mike31fr 4y ago
While I agree with the message you are trying to convey, the 2020 case doesn't have to be more complicated than the 2010 case: 2010 edit an html button: 0. Install an ftp client (you need to mention that if you mention installing git) 1. pull the file from ftp or sourcesafe/svn 2. edit the button 3. upload to ftp 2020 edit an html button: 1. clone the code 2. edit the html button 3. commit changes
- vultour 4y ago
  You can’t test the 2020 code without Node.
npteljes 4y ago
Come on now. With modern flow, you have to "install git", but in ye olde times you don't install svn or ftp? And back then we didn't have gatekeeping seniors? And we request sudo now, and not back then? I think you got that confused. Old software sucked a lot, and automation sucked a lot. Weird issues where you HAD to know what went wrong, because handholding was looked down upon. The lack of automation meant that servers were pets, you looked after them, groomed them, maybe even sang a song to get the piece of junk going. Modern automation means you mostly care about the blueprint, not the actual instance. If it's not working properly, you reimage. If you need more, fire up more instances. Also, what can you do on the frontend only? I have two examples from the top of my head: https://www.photopea.com/ https://www.photopea.com/ https://simplepdf.eu/ https://simplepdf.eu/
- 5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
  > Also, what can you do on the frontend only? I was talking specifically about React. But it's not a surprise that "modern front end" devs conflate React with JavaScript.
  - npteljes 4y ago
    I see. I was confused by the statement before it: "no such thing as frontend development. only full stack." Getting back to the point, my simplepdf.eu example is indeed using React - according to Builtwith, it's built with Next.js, which is used to build React applications.
erlich 4y ago
It’s crazy and impressive how we devs created this fucking huge industry where hundreds of millions was spent to solve a problem that didn’t really exist and actually made things harder and more expensive.
- 5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
  every solution creates new issues. sometimes the trade-offs are worth it, but many many are not - but there is a lack of stability and appreciation for long term support, so trade-offs are being made left right and center. you work on constantly shifting surfaces.
sliq 4y ago
you nailed it! this is exactly the problem. everything is horribly overcomplicated these days. i've 13 years of business experience and it gets harder and harder to even set up the most simple "hello world" demo of most frameworks. also the job market represents this insanity too: 5 years ago I easily got senior positions, now i don't even know the words inside most job descriptions even in my field. And on top of all, stuff like kubernetes, kibana and prometheus now also is often expected from a typical backend developer. absolute mayhem!

gtsop 4y ago

A couple builders were complaining why they couldn't build houses like in the old days when you would slap 2 blocks of wood together and call it a day. now you have to use steel, heatproof it, soundproof it, check the integrity of the build, submit designs, take safety into account, what a waste... obviously sarcastic. most of the things you are complaining about bring to mind a person who is bored of doing responsible coding.

bluefirebrand 4y ago

> request sudo from IT If you work for a company that doesn't give you Sudo on your own machine as a developer by default, find a new job Don't work for companies that still treat their professionals like children.

peatfreak 4y ago
Easier said than done. This style of doing things is very common in large corporate environments such as financial services. The first time anybody works at a place like this they are shocked by all the IT red tape, but it's an interesting (and frustrating) rite of passage. It takes maturity and experience to understand that there is always a reason for "stupid" complications.
- jitl 4y ago
  These organization should change their infosec posture to support sudo on dev machines as standard issue, especially if you’re issuing laptops. Maybe I’m immature but I’d prefer not to suffer as such for the sake of a “rite of passage” from ages past.
  - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 4y ago
    Some organizations still haven’t adjusted their infosec posture to allow git, let alone sudo.
- oneplane 4y ago
  I think it's very easy to not work there, just leave and don't go back. I suspect most people that stick around either don't know any better or do it for the money/status/whatever and not for the technology.
rzimmerman 4y ago
Absolutely unacceptable to not give a developer local root on their own machine. Manage profiles and install logging all you want, but requiring a developer to ask permission to install docker/git/tools they need is not security, it's incompetence. If your employer won't give you the tools you need to do your job you should find another one. If your IT/security department is there to block you instead of help you get work done, you should also find a new job. I'm not saying walk out the door today, just that you don't deserve to be treated like that.

mike31fr 4y ago

While I agree with the message you are trying to convey, the 2020 case doesn't have to be more complicated than the 2010 case: 2010 edit an html button: 0. Install an ftp client (you need to mention that if you mention installing git) 1. pull the file from ftp or sourcesafe/svn 2. edit the button 3. upload to ftp 2020 edit an html button: 1. clone the code 2. edit the html button 3. commit changes

vultour 4y ago
You can’t test the 2020 code without Node.

npteljes 4y ago

Come on now. With modern flow, you have to "install git", but in ye olde times you don't install svn or ftp? And back then we didn't have gatekeeping seniors? And we request sudo now, and not back then? I think you got that confused. Old software sucked a lot, and automation sucked a lot. Weird issues where you HAD to know what went wrong, because handholding was looked down upon. The lack of automation meant that servers were pets, you looked after them, groomed them, maybe even sang a song to get the piece of junk going. Modern automation means you mostly care about the blueprint, not the actual instance. If it's not working properly, you reimage. If you need more, fire up more instances. Also, what can you do on the frontend only? I have two examples from the top of my head: https://www.photopea.com/ https://www.photopea.com/ https://simplepdf.eu/ https://simplepdf.eu/

5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
> Also, what can you do on the frontend only? I was talking specifically about React. But it's not a surprise that "modern front end" devs conflate React with JavaScript.
- npteljes 4y ago
  I see. I was confused by the statement before it: "no such thing as frontend development. only full stack." Getting back to the point, my simplepdf.eu example is indeed using React - according to Builtwith, it's built with Next.js, which is used to build React applications.

erlich 4y ago

It’s crazy and impressive how we devs created this fucking huge industry where hundreds of millions was spent to solve a problem that didn’t really exist and actually made things harder and more expensive.

5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
every solution creates new issues. sometimes the trade-offs are worth it, but many many are not - but there is a lack of stability and appreciation for long term support, so trade-offs are being made left right and center. you work on constantly shifting surfaces.

sliq 4y ago

you nailed it! this is exactly the problem. everything is horribly overcomplicated these days. i've 13 years of business experience and it gets harder and harder to even set up the most simple "hello world" demo of most frameworks. also the job market represents this insanity too: 5 years ago I easily got senior positions, now i don't even know the words inside most job descriptions even in my field. And on top of all, stuff like kubernetes, kibana and prometheus now also is often expected from a typical backend developer. absolute mayhem!