5 ms·

Vim (and recently neovim) has been my editor for around 14 years now! That's about seven hours in this editor every day, and I still find the mouse very conven

Vim (and recently neovim) has been my editor for around 14 years now! That's about seven hours in this editor every day, and I still find the mouse very convenient for a lot of the moves where the destination cannot be described with one or two keys. I like the idea of this plugin but I don't think it will be a big leap over the use of mouse!

jalino23 4y ago
but the idea of not having to move your hands off the keyboard to reach the mouse sounds like a big leap!
- ablob 4y ago
  A trackpoint device embedded in the keyboard may or may not be your friend, then.
  - therealdrag0 4y ago
    I use a split keyboard (kinesis advantage) with an apple magic trackpad Velcroed (Command Strip) in the middle. It’s great, esp for scrolling.
  - noncoml 4y ago
    I used to love the “nipple” on thinkpads for that exact reason
    - _dain_ 4y ago
      They tend to get stuck off-centre for me.
yarky 4y ago
I've been using nvim for around 5 years for everything I do on a computer other than web browsing. It feels like I'm missing something here, but why would you ever need a mouse within your terminal? I don't recall never ever needing it :/
- rhinoceraptor 4y ago
  I use the mouse all the time in tmux and nvim, especially for resizing splits, scrolling terminal output, selecting text from tmux, and navigating my nvim file browser. tmux actually has a right click menu that is nice to use occasionally.
  - yarky 4y ago
    Funny, I use tmux all day long because it allows me to navigate out of vim without a mouse. So far I can handle most of my pane resizing needs with prefix + space bar. Otherwise I'll just launch a new window. Maybe I'm just allergic to the mouse.
    - rhinoceraptor 4y ago
      I tend to have two modes, if I'm actively writing code I rarely use the mouse, but if I'm reading code, I'm mostly using the mouse.
  - ghshephard 4y ago
    I got stuck on a job in Dubai (Government client - they also had us work in trailers on-site - no remote access allowed) with a Remote Desktop jump host where the mouse didn't have any pass-through to my terminal session - which mean I had to work for 8 hours a day without any ability to select/copy/paste with a mouse. I had tmux-installed on the remote hosts and for the next three months, select/cut/copy/paste/resize panes/etc... were done without a mouse. Seven years later, I've never once used a mouse with tmux since then. https://github.com/schasse/tmux-jump https://github.com/schasse/tmux-jump is the equivalent plugin that lets you jump anywhere you want on the screen.
  - sva_ 4y ago
    It's really rewarding to set up tmux copy mode in a way that works for you imho.
  - qudat 4y ago
    Agreed on resizing. It's not worth it for me to remember those shortcuts when a mouse works faster.
systemvoltage 4y ago
Truth. This has been my experience as well but saying this would upset a lot of people. People would equate the time it takes to press 4 keys vs moving the mouse but entirely forget the mental compute time of finding a pattern, recognition, selection of first 2 chars, etc. That for me takes more time than moving the mouse.
- lawn 4y ago
  That's just because you haven't internalizes the keypresses so they're second nature. With enough practice most of these operations are practically instant, done before you've had time to move your hand over to the mouse. Of course the keyword here is "practice". And just using Vim without putting effort into learning these movements doesn't make you good at them, so people using Vim for years/decades without making them second nature and thus prefering the mouse is not too surprising.
  - systemvoltage 4y ago
    I've been using vim daily for many years and I still find mouse faster. Computing doesn't get faster beyond a certain limit. You still need to find and search text where you want to land. That takes 200ms more than I'd like. Pattern finding doesn't get faster beyond a certain point. You can't solve a jigsaw puzzle instantly after 10 years of experience. Pattern recognition and search requires finite time. Mouse is instant in terms of brain compute.
    - stjohnswarts 4y ago
      Do pianists think about where the keyboard is? the notes? they really just know from repetition. The same happens with text editors if you commit yourself to them like emacs or vim
      - systemvoltage 4y ago
        Yes that happens, but I am not arguing about whether we get faster from repetition. I am saying that after a sustained practice and repetition, there exists a hard limit. Pianists cannot play at 100000 keys/minute. I spend solid 6 hours a day on vim. Almost every day. I don't look at the keyboard or what I am typing. I don't even think about what I am typing. However, searching for 2 letters is a constant time operation and cannot be optimized away with repetition. You still need to go search for a word that starts with "ha" if you're trying to moving to a word "hackernews". THAT takes time and mental compute. This is very different from not looking at keyboard keys or your argument about a pianist. Whatever that search time is exceeds the ease of using a mouse (for me). Trust me, it is not about practice.
almog 4y ago
OP and other commenters mentioned years of experience using Vim to support the claim that their usage of the mouse is likely to be necessary. And while they might be right (or wrong), I'd love to see a good example that demonstrate that claim. As to myself, I've been using Vim for over 10 years, yet I think it tells nothing of my proficiency with Vim. It's easy enough to become dangerous enough with Vim to surpass any past traditional editor one has used before that (excluding emacs) yet it's just as easy to let one's skills slowly plateau (as I'm surely been prone to over the years). I rarely use a pointing device while in vim/tmux (an exception is when using a lot of splits which I probably should avoid using anyway). btw the pointing device I'm using is a trackpad mounted on top of my Kinesis Advantage keyboard which means I don't have to take my palm off the keyboard to use the mouse (it is _not_ an argument to say that despite the short distance I almost never use the mouse in vim/tmux but just a side note and a setup that I recommend if you already own a Kinesis Advantage or a similar keyboard)

jalino23 4y ago

but the idea of not having to move your hands off the keyboard to reach the mouse sounds like a big leap!

ablob 4y ago
A trackpoint device embedded in the keyboard may or may not be your friend, then.
- therealdrag0 4y ago
  I use a split keyboard (kinesis advantage) with an apple magic trackpad Velcroed (Command Strip) in the middle. It’s great, esp for scrolling.
- noncoml 4y ago
  I used to love the “nipple” on thinkpads for that exact reason
  - _dain_ 4y ago
    They tend to get stuck off-centre for me.

yarky 4y ago

I've been using nvim for around 5 years for everything I do on a computer other than web browsing. It feels like I'm missing something here, but why would you ever need a mouse within your terminal? I don't recall never ever needing it :/

rhinoceraptor 4y ago
I use the mouse all the time in tmux and nvim, especially for resizing splits, scrolling terminal output, selecting text from tmux, and navigating my nvim file browser. tmux actually has a right click menu that is nice to use occasionally.
- yarky 4y ago
  Funny, I use tmux all day long because it allows me to navigate out of vim without a mouse. So far I can handle most of my pane resizing needs with prefix + space bar. Otherwise I'll just launch a new window. Maybe I'm just allergic to the mouse.
  - rhinoceraptor 4y ago
    I tend to have two modes, if I'm actively writing code I rarely use the mouse, but if I'm reading code, I'm mostly using the mouse.
- ghshephard 4y ago
  I got stuck on a job in Dubai (Government client - they also had us work in trailers on-site - no remote access allowed) with a Remote Desktop jump host where the mouse didn't have any pass-through to my terminal session - which mean I had to work for 8 hours a day without any ability to select/copy/paste with a mouse. I had tmux-installed on the remote hosts and for the next three months, select/cut/copy/paste/resize panes/etc... were done without a mouse. Seven years later, I've never once used a mouse with tmux since then. https://github.com/schasse/tmux-jump https://github.com/schasse/tmux-jump is the equivalent plugin that lets you jump anywhere you want on the screen.
- sva_ 4y ago
  It's really rewarding to set up tmux copy mode in a way that works for you imho.
- qudat 4y ago
  Agreed on resizing. It's not worth it for me to remember those shortcuts when a mouse works faster.

systemvoltage 4y ago

Truth. This has been my experience as well but saying this would upset a lot of people. People would equate the time it takes to press 4 keys vs moving the mouse but entirely forget the mental compute time of finding a pattern, recognition, selection of first 2 chars, etc. That for me takes more time than moving the mouse.

lawn 4y ago
That's just because you haven't internalizes the keypresses so they're second nature. With enough practice most of these operations are practically instant, done before you've had time to move your hand over to the mouse. Of course the keyword here is "practice". And just using Vim without putting effort into learning these movements doesn't make you good at them, so people using Vim for years/decades without making them second nature and thus prefering the mouse is not too surprising.
- systemvoltage 4y ago
  I've been using vim daily for many years and I still find mouse faster. Computing doesn't get faster beyond a certain limit. You still need to find and search text where you want to land. That takes 200ms more than I'd like. Pattern finding doesn't get faster beyond a certain point. You can't solve a jigsaw puzzle instantly after 10 years of experience. Pattern recognition and search requires finite time. Mouse is instant in terms of brain compute.
  - stjohnswarts 4y ago
    Do pianists think about where the keyboard is? the notes? they really just know from repetition. The same happens with text editors if you commit yourself to them like emacs or vim
    - systemvoltage 4y ago
      Yes that happens, but I am not arguing about whether we get faster from repetition. I am saying that after a sustained practice and repetition, there exists a hard limit. Pianists cannot play at 100000 keys/minute. I spend solid 6 hours a day on vim. Almost every day. I don't look at the keyboard or what I am typing. I don't even think about what I am typing. However, searching for 2 letters is a constant time operation and cannot be optimized away with repetition. You still need to go search for a word that starts with "ha" if you're trying to moving to a word "hackernews". THAT takes time and mental compute. This is very different from not looking at keyboard keys or your argument about a pianist. Whatever that search time is exceeds the ease of using a mouse (for me). Trust me, it is not about practice.

almog 4y ago

OP and other commenters mentioned years of experience using Vim to support the claim that their usage of the mouse is likely to be necessary. And while they might be right (or wrong), I'd love to see a good example that demonstrate that claim. As to myself, I've been using Vim for over 10 years, yet I think it tells nothing of my proficiency with Vim. It's easy enough to become dangerous enough with Vim to surpass any past traditional editor one has used before that (excluding emacs) yet it's just as easy to let one's skills slowly plateau (as I'm surely been prone to over the years). I rarely use a pointing device while in vim/tmux (an exception is when using a lot of splits which I probably should avoid using anyway). btw the pointing device I'm using is a trackpad mounted on top of my Kinesis Advantage keyboard which means I don't have to take my palm off the keyboard to use the mouse (it is _not_ an argument to say that despite the short distance I almost never use the mouse in vim/tmux but just a side note and a setup that I recommend if you already own a Kinesis Advantage or a similar keyboard)