5 ms·

It is unfortunate that this stuff is not open source in the first place. the pcengines apu2 is currently my preferred small system. one of the things I really

by somat 4y ago

It is unfortunate that this stuff is not open source in the first place. the pcengines apu2 is currently my preferred small system. one of the things I really like about it is that the firmware is open source. I will probably never need to build my own firmware, but I like knowing that I could. https://pcengines.github.io/ https://pcengines.github.io/ Having said that, I think there is still a big ol black box of AMD secret sauce in there, sigh, so close yet still so far. why so secretive? what are you trying to hide?

smoldesu 4y ago
It might not even be legal to ship motherboards with fully open-source firmware, especially if it has WiFi/Bluetooth baked in. Once you add anything related to networking in your stack, the chance of running FOSS firmware goes out the window. It's all very lock-and-key stuff, according to... <squints at piece of paper> ...the United States Government.
- paulryanrogers 4y ago
  Why? Because of FCC requirements around radio emissions?
  - runnerup 4y ago
    Yeah the firmware can control the gain/broadcast power and exceed FCC limits. It can be open source still, but modifying it and running the modified version would invalidate the FCC certification and running non certified transmitters is generally frowned upon, often illegal, depending on precise circumstances.
    - RF_Savage 4y ago
      Not even the running, but sale of. If it's too easy to modify then FCC will make it's sale illegal. Nobody wants that risk for their product.
      - mmis1000 4y ago
        Actually linux distro package repo have the list and the way to compile and load into system for obvious reasons. (Otherwise how do they compile the wifi drivers for themselves?) But no one is even going to say how to actually do it publicly because it is illegal to do (and probably also unsafe to do).
      - somat 4y ago
        And yet I can buy an sdr 400mhz-6ghz no problem? sigh, whatever, things are never fair. I will say the thing that pisses me off about thinkpads is their use of a whitelist to limit radios. their justification for this was the same. "it's certified as a radio antenna pair, the fcc will not let us let you install whatever radio you want" which is bullshit.
        wildzzz 4y ago
        The price of an SDR is usually much more than a basic WiFi card so that's kind of the justification for why an SDR doesn't require an FCC license since it's for experimental purposes and that you probably have a good reason to be using one. If you use one outside what you are licensed to do so, then expect the FCC to come down on you. The FCC license for consumer goods is a way for a manufacter to say that the product conforms to the applicable rules so that the FCC doesn't have to worry about every end-user fucking around with the spectrum.
    - AngryData 4y ago
      And yet I can buy a Microtik router that just has dropdown boxes for selecting options that would get the FCC to bust down my door. I think it is far more likely that they just don't want to expose what would then be obvious security vulnerabilities and/or built-in backdoors.
      - MrDOS 4y ago
        Doesn't Mikrotik have US-specific part numbers that have hardware locks around particular RF features?
        dboreham 4y ago
        Yes, although there is probably old stock that lacks the locks, and getting hold of non-US versions of their product isn't impossible.
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    If that's the only problem, it shouldn't be too hard to limit either in hardware or have the HW run the user-provided firmware in some rudimentary VM that essentially passes through everything except the commands that set TX power; that way you maintain compliance without restricting people from running their own software. I think however it's just a matter of time before these restrictions become obsolete anyway: 1) I'm not sure whether the possibility of violating FCC regulations is something that will be used in practice by enough people to be a problem (you might get the odd one out here and there, but see the point below) 2) People who intentionally want to violate FCC regulations can already do so in plenty of ways - SDRs are becoming cheaper and cheaper and there's basically no way to prevent their import, so I'm not sure why they'll even bother with a wireless card if their aim is to truly cause mischief and shit on restricted radio bands.
- yakak 4y ago
  Tivoization features have to prevent you from running other code. Anyone relying on preventing the reading of source to avoid modifications is living on the knife's edge with regulators.
- dylan604 4y ago
  Would there be any traction with a mobo that did not have any of that stuff built-in? There's a lot of advantages to no longer needing expansion cards for networking, so I seriously doubt anyone wants to go back to that. A laptop with a bunch USB dongles connected to a hub could be a doable solve to keep that gear off the mobo.
  - p1necone 4y ago
    Could you leave an empty socket for a wifi controller chip but still build in the antennas? Although that would likely lock you into whatever chip had the right pin out which seems a bit pointless.
    - derefr 4y ago
      Why not just have the wifi-controller hardware already there, but strip out the software required to make it do anything? I.e. modularize the BIOS firmware such that you flash "the BIOS firmware" and "the wifi/bluetooth stack firmware" separately, to separate chips. Then ship the motherboard without the wifi/bluetooth stack firmware pre-flashed — with the NAND that the wifi controller initializes from, just empty, such that the wifi controller immediately halts on boot, and the CPU doesn't find it on the bus. Make sure the rest of the BIOS works without the wifi controller "up". And then have an open root key of trust for the BIOS (= you can sign your own BIOS), but a closed root key of trust for the wifi controller (= only the OEM can sign the wifi/bluetooth stack firmware.) It doesn't seem like it would be all that hard, given that we already have this kind of hardware firmware (+ firmware storage) modularity in modern devices in other ways — e.g. most trackpads have their own isolated firmware, that the host can flash to update, but which isn't otherwise accessed by the host CPU, rather only the trackpad microcontroller itself; where the trackpad firmware flash lives inside the trackpad, not in the host.
    - dylan604 4y ago
      Seems like this kind of radio chip would be standard pin out in 2022. Could you not just put one of those chips like Broadcom makes that has all the radio formats on it? Even sell it as a "kit" so that it comes with it but you have to install yourself to meet "regulations" or licensing terms. The first gen of Thunderbolt add-on came as PCIe due to some sort licensing issue instead of on the mobo directly
- tenebrisalietum 4y ago
  I've never understood this because I can attach any USB adapter I want and it works.
- pabs3 4y ago
  Despite that, the Atheros WiFi vendor released source code for their WiFi firmware at least twice: https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware/Open#Radio https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware/Open#Radio
- KingMachiavelli 4y ago
  It would still be significantly better if mobos ran coreboot (or some open source firmware) with some binary blobs for WiFi/Bluetooth. It's not out of the ordinary to have this arrangement; the newer Nvidia GPUs support open source kernel modules because they use encrypted binary blobs to lock down actual functionality. The WiFi/Bluetooth chips could even have open source firmware but require a signed hash of that firmware binary.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
russdill 4y ago
Apu2 is starting to get rather long in the tooth. Hope there is a refresh soon because it's a great little piece of hardware
- walterbell 4y ago
  Email PC Engines and ask/encourage hardware refresh. There have been shortages of Intel network chips which limited APU2 shipments.
kyrra 4y ago
If you want an x86 small form factor computer, you can get some from some vendors that have open source firmware on them. My home router is from Protectli which runs coreboot that is open source, instead of a standard bios. https://protectli.com/kb/coreboot-build-guide/ https://protectli.com/kb/coreboot-build-guide/ - guide on how to build coreboot yourself. You can check out their homepage for the hardware they sell and that includes it. https://www.coreboot.org/ https://www.coreboot.org/ It looks like the systems may still contain some binary blobs in Coreboot.
- squarefoot 4y ago
  Interesting. I thought they were available only in the US (or UK, but end prices became definitely not appealing for us Europeans after Brexit). However, the risk of bricking the device is too high for many users to embark in the Coreboot installation, so why not offering it as a service before sale? It would be a lot easier for them as they need only one build for each model, and charging say 20 bucks for each install would easily cover the costs. A similar offer comes from NRG Systems from Germany: https://www.ipu-system.de/ https://www.ipu-system.de/ They however don't mention Coreboot compatibility, although I'm sure the platforms share many similarities.
  - kyrra 4y ago
    FYI, Protectli are a rebrand of Yanling hardware, which are sold on AliExpress. https://m.aliexpress.us/item/3256802158669247.html?algo_pvid=e80e6ccf-dbee-4365-82fb-4db6339307b3&algo_exp_id=e80e6ccf-dbee-4365-82fb-4db6339307b3-8&gatewayAdapt=gloPc2usaMsite&_randl_shipto=US https://m.aliexpress.us/item/3256802158669247.html?algo_pvid... Protectli provide their own warranty on, plus offer coreboot. But you can get the same hardware cheaper on AliExpress maybe.
    - egberts1 4y ago
      Shipping fee is $98?!?!?
      - 4y ago

by somat 4y ago

smoldesu 4y ago

It might not even be legal to ship motherboards with fully open-source firmware, especially if it has WiFi/Bluetooth baked in. Once you add anything related to networking in your stack, the chance of running FOSS firmware goes out the window. It's all very lock-and-key stuff, according to... <squints at piece of paper> ...the United States Government.

paulryanrogers 4y ago
Why? Because of FCC requirements around radio emissions?
- runnerup 4y ago
  Yeah the firmware can control the gain/broadcast power and exceed FCC limits. It can be open source still, but modifying it and running the modified version would invalidate the FCC certification and running non certified transmitters is generally frowned upon, often illegal, depending on precise circumstances.
  - RF_Savage 4y ago
    Not even the running, but sale of. If it's too easy to modify then FCC will make it's sale illegal. Nobody wants that risk for their product.
    - mmis1000 4y ago
      Actually linux distro package repo have the list and the way to compile and load into system for obvious reasons. (Otherwise how do they compile the wifi drivers for themselves?) But no one is even going to say how to actually do it publicly because it is illegal to do (and probably also unsafe to do).
    - somat 4y ago
      And yet I can buy an sdr 400mhz-6ghz no problem? sigh, whatever, things are never fair. I will say the thing that pisses me off about thinkpads is their use of a whitelist to limit radios. their justification for this was the same. "it's certified as a radio antenna pair, the fcc will not let us let you install whatever radio you want" which is bullshit.
      - wildzzz 4y ago
        The price of an SDR is usually much more than a basic WiFi card so that's kind of the justification for why an SDR doesn't require an FCC license since it's for experimental purposes and that you probably have a good reason to be using one. If you use one outside what you are licensed to do so, then expect the FCC to come down on you. The FCC license for consumer goods is a way for a manufacter to say that the product conforms to the applicable rules so that the FCC doesn't have to worry about every end-user fucking around with the spectrum.
  - AngryData 4y ago
    And yet I can buy a Microtik router that just has dropdown boxes for selecting options that would get the FCC to bust down my door. I think it is far more likely that they just don't want to expose what would then be obvious security vulnerabilities and/or built-in backdoors.
    - MrDOS 4y ago
      Doesn't Mikrotik have US-specific part numbers that have hardware locks around particular RF features?
      - dboreham 4y ago
        Yes, although there is probably old stock that lacks the locks, and getting hold of non-US versions of their product isn't impossible.
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  If that's the only problem, it shouldn't be too hard to limit either in hardware or have the HW run the user-provided firmware in some rudimentary VM that essentially passes through everything except the commands that set TX power; that way you maintain compliance without restricting people from running their own software. I think however it's just a matter of time before these restrictions become obsolete anyway: 1) I'm not sure whether the possibility of violating FCC regulations is something that will be used in practice by enough people to be a problem (you might get the odd one out here and there, but see the point below) 2) People who intentionally want to violate FCC regulations can already do so in plenty of ways - SDRs are becoming cheaper and cheaper and there's basically no way to prevent their import, so I'm not sure why they'll even bother with a wireless card if their aim is to truly cause mischief and shit on restricted radio bands.
yakak 4y ago
Tivoization features have to prevent you from running other code. Anyone relying on preventing the reading of source to avoid modifications is living on the knife's edge with regulators.
dylan604 4y ago
Would there be any traction with a mobo that did not have any of that stuff built-in? There's a lot of advantages to no longer needing expansion cards for networking, so I seriously doubt anyone wants to go back to that. A laptop with a bunch USB dongles connected to a hub could be a doable solve to keep that gear off the mobo.
- p1necone 4y ago
  Could you leave an empty socket for a wifi controller chip but still build in the antennas? Although that would likely lock you into whatever chip had the right pin out which seems a bit pointless.
  - derefr 4y ago
    Why not just have the wifi-controller hardware already there, but strip out the software required to make it do anything? I.e. modularize the BIOS firmware such that you flash "the BIOS firmware" and "the wifi/bluetooth stack firmware" separately, to separate chips. Then ship the motherboard without the wifi/bluetooth stack firmware pre-flashed — with the NAND that the wifi controller initializes from, just empty, such that the wifi controller immediately halts on boot, and the CPU doesn't find it on the bus. Make sure the rest of the BIOS works without the wifi controller "up". And then have an open root key of trust for the BIOS (= you can sign your own BIOS), but a closed root key of trust for the wifi controller (= only the OEM can sign the wifi/bluetooth stack firmware.) It doesn't seem like it would be all that hard, given that we already have this kind of hardware firmware (+ firmware storage) modularity in modern devices in other ways — e.g. most trackpads have their own isolated firmware, that the host can flash to update, but which isn't otherwise accessed by the host CPU, rather only the trackpad microcontroller itself; where the trackpad firmware flash lives inside the trackpad, not in the host.
  - dylan604 4y ago
    Seems like this kind of radio chip would be standard pin out in 2022. Could you not just put one of those chips like Broadcom makes that has all the radio formats on it? Even sell it as a "kit" so that it comes with it but you have to install yourself to meet "regulations" or licensing terms. The first gen of Thunderbolt add-on came as PCIe due to some sort licensing issue instead of on the mobo directly
tenebrisalietum 4y ago
I've never understood this because I can attach any USB adapter I want and it works.
pabs3 4y ago
Despite that, the Atheros WiFi vendor released source code for their WiFi firmware at least twice: https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware/Open#Radio https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware/Open#Radio
KingMachiavelli 4y ago
It would still be significantly better if mobos ran coreboot (or some open source firmware) with some binary blobs for WiFi/Bluetooth. It's not out of the ordinary to have this arrangement; the newer Nvidia GPUs support open source kernel modules because they use encrypted binary blobs to lock down actual functionality. The WiFi/Bluetooth chips could even have open source firmware but require a signed hash of that firmware binary.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

russdill 4y ago

Apu2 is starting to get rather long in the tooth. Hope there is a refresh soon because it's a great little piece of hardware

walterbell 4y ago
Email PC Engines and ask/encourage hardware refresh. There have been shortages of Intel network chips which limited APU2 shipments.

kyrra 4y ago

If you want an x86 small form factor computer, you can get some from some vendors that have open source firmware on them. My home router is from Protectli which runs coreboot that is open source, instead of a standard bios. https://protectli.com/kb/coreboot-build-guide/ https://protectli.com/kb/coreboot-build-guide/ - guide on how to build coreboot yourself. You can check out their homepage for the hardware they sell and that includes it. https://www.coreboot.org/ https://www.coreboot.org/ It looks like the systems may still contain some binary blobs in Coreboot.

squarefoot 4y ago
Interesting. I thought they were available only in the US (or UK, but end prices became definitely not appealing for us Europeans after Brexit). However, the risk of bricking the device is too high for many users to embark in the Coreboot installation, so why not offering it as a service before sale? It would be a lot easier for them as they need only one build for each model, and charging say 20 bucks for each install would easily cover the costs. A similar offer comes from NRG Systems from Germany: https://www.ipu-system.de/ https://www.ipu-system.de/ They however don't mention Coreboot compatibility, although I'm sure the platforms share many similarities.
- kyrra 4y ago
  FYI, Protectli are a rebrand of Yanling hardware, which are sold on AliExpress. https://m.aliexpress.us/item/3256802158669247.html?algo_pvid=e80e6ccf-dbee-4365-82fb-4db6339307b3&algo_exp_id=e80e6ccf-dbee-4365-82fb-4db6339307b3-8&gatewayAdapt=gloPc2usaMsite&_randl_shipto=US https://m.aliexpress.us/item/3256802158669247.html?algo_pvid... Protectli provide their own warranty on, plus offer coreboot. But you can get the same hardware cheaper on AliExpress maybe.
  - egberts1 4y ago
    Shipping fee is $98?!?!?
    - 4y ago