6 ms·

The fact that they got the sensors removed isn't even really a victory, as noted. They'll be back, eventually. And the way the usage is being monitored is only

The fact that they got the sensors removed isn't even really a victory, as noted. They'll be back, eventually. And the way the usage is being monitored is only one part of the issue here. The original issue remains: the people at the desks are seen as cattle to be more efficiently packed, undeserving of their own space. That's not a mindset that goes away. I've seen it in assigned desks -> shared first-come-first-served seating. I've twice worked at places where my office was surreptitiously packed up and moved while I was in a meeting. When they show you how they think of you, you have to understand that they'll never change how they think. They'll just remember not to show you.

matheusmoreira 4y ago
> the people at the desks are seen as cattle to be more efficiently packed Absolutely. It's so dehumanizing. It boggles my mind that they think they have the right to do things like this, it betrays a lack of basic respect for other humans that's hard to articulate. We must discuss this pathology. What is the origin of this mindset? How do these businesses and institutions start thinking like this? Treating people as inhuman resources to be efficiently allocated and managed as they see fit, and any method used to do so is justified?
- rthomas6 4y ago
  I mean, I understand it even though I don't agree with it. If you're trying to budget for an organization, and it comes down to either needing to buy an entire new office building, or making everyone make do with 20% less space, that packing people in option looks pretty attractive.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    Before COVID threw everything into disarray, a friend was telling me they had at least one building that was really bursting at the seams for space. I don't think they did any automated usage monitoring but they did manually check utilization on a regular basis and asked people who weren't using their assigned desk frequently enough to give up their permanent seat. Which seems very reasonable.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jrootabega 4y ago
  More people, commoditization of tech workers, more dependence on a consumption-heavy lifestyle, less local sense of community, real estate costs growing disproportionately, in combination with the mandate to cut expenses that was always there. "Inhuman Resources" would be a badass title for a movie about a company that hired vampires and stuff.
  - p1esk 4y ago
    https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1857842/ https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1857842/
    - jrootabega 4y ago
      I think they wasted it by not having actual monsters or aliens.
- neltnerb 4y ago
  The origin dates to antiquity, slavery has existed a long time. I'm sure there are accounting books from ancient Egypt documenting all of this in intricate detail. The fact that this mindset continues to persist is horrifying, but it's been a constant battle for thousands of years... I don't even know how you fight it without at least the concept of unions and solidarity between workers. I feel it is the lingering desire of people who once had kingly power over their employees to at least retain the certain knowledge that rules do not apply to them in the same way they apply to their employees. I doubt that provost is interested in moving to the night shift so that they can more efficiently use their office for three provosts in three separate shifts. They aren't even contemplating that the rules they want to apply to everyone in a low social class might be more productively applied to themselves. Because I am pretty sure you could fit five grad student desks in a typical provost's office. Fifteen if you force them to work in three shifts. Of course five grad student stipends is almost certainly also only half the provost's salary... seems like another opportunity for cost savings and improved research efficiency.
db48x 4y ago
Wow. I would resign on the spot if that happened to me. The one time I worked in an office (in my 25 year career), someone tried something similar but much less egregious. A person I had never met before came up to my desk in the middle of the day with a new employee and asked if they could swap desks with me, so that this new employee could be nearer to their team mates. Since the desk they wanted me to move to was all the way across the floor I pointed out that this would leave me sitting far away from my own team mates and thus it would not exactly be a net improvement. It took a few tries, but eventually they understood that I was declining to move, and it never went any further than that. I was rather surprised that they didn’t even consider that they might be making an ineffectual decision.
- itronitron 4y ago
  For me, the real dehumanizing aspect is the one-sided and covert rewriting of the workplace rules. They could easily get the same information they want by having people sign in, or reserve space in time increments (although I'm not really sure how this lab works in terms of allocating space.) In that case everyone knows what data is recorded and its level of detail.
  - db48x 4y ago
    Yea, that would be a big part of it. All cooperation in a group comes from understanding and agreeing to that group’s rules, and traditionally from having some say in what those rules are. But there is also the lack of respect for personal privacy, personal belongings, etc shown by moving someone else’s stuff. And to cowardly wait until someone is in a meeting to move their office, rather than risk a confrontation? Wow. You know, there is a story in Peopleware, by Tom DeMarco and Tim Lister, about how office assignments are handled in large, successful software companies. The team that needs offices is sent by their manager to whoever is in charge of the facilities. There they learn about the various office buildings they have, the floor plans of the rooms that are available, what furniture is readily to hand, and so on. Together the team picks one or more offices, furnishes them, etc. To me that almost sounds like a myth from a long–lost golden age. But working from home has lots of advantages too, so I’m going to keep doing that rather than try to join IBM or whatever.
floren 4y ago
> The original issue remains: the people at the desks are seen as cattle to be more efficiently packed, undeserving of their own space. Not just that, if I read the article correctly the administration wants to free up lab space so they can move in themselves!

matheusmoreira 4y ago

> the people at the desks are seen as cattle to be more efficiently packed Absolutely. It's so dehumanizing. It boggles my mind that they think they have the right to do things like this, it betrays a lack of basic respect for other humans that's hard to articulate. We must discuss this pathology. What is the origin of this mindset? How do these businesses and institutions start thinking like this? Treating people as inhuman resources to be efficiently allocated and managed as they see fit, and any method used to do so is justified?

rthomas6 4y ago
I mean, I understand it even though I don't agree with it. If you're trying to budget for an organization, and it comes down to either needing to buy an entire new office building, or making everyone make do with 20% less space, that packing people in option looks pretty attractive.
- ghaff 4y ago
  Before COVID threw everything into disarray, a friend was telling me they had at least one building that was really bursting at the seams for space. I don't think they did any automated usage monitoring but they did manually check utilization on a regular basis and asked people who weren't using their assigned desk frequently enough to give up their permanent seat. Which seems very reasonable.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jrootabega 4y ago
More people, commoditization of tech workers, more dependence on a consumption-heavy lifestyle, less local sense of community, real estate costs growing disproportionately, in combination with the mandate to cut expenses that was always there. "Inhuman Resources" would be a badass title for a movie about a company that hired vampires and stuff.
- p1esk 4y ago
  https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1857842/ https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1857842/
  - jrootabega 4y ago
    I think they wasted it by not having actual monsters or aliens.
neltnerb 4y ago
The origin dates to antiquity, slavery has existed a long time. I'm sure there are accounting books from ancient Egypt documenting all of this in intricate detail. The fact that this mindset continues to persist is horrifying, but it's been a constant battle for thousands of years... I don't even know how you fight it without at least the concept of unions and solidarity between workers. I feel it is the lingering desire of people who once had kingly power over their employees to at least retain the certain knowledge that rules do not apply to them in the same way they apply to their employees. I doubt that provost is interested in moving to the night shift so that they can more efficiently use their office for three provosts in three separate shifts. They aren't even contemplating that the rules they want to apply to everyone in a low social class might be more productively applied to themselves. Because I am pretty sure you could fit five grad student desks in a typical provost's office. Fifteen if you force them to work in three shifts. Of course five grad student stipends is almost certainly also only half the provost's salary... seems like another opportunity for cost savings and improved research efficiency.

db48x 4y ago

Wow. I would resign on the spot if that happened to me. The one time I worked in an office (in my 25 year career), someone tried something similar but much less egregious. A person I had never met before came up to my desk in the middle of the day with a new employee and asked if they could swap desks with me, so that this new employee could be nearer to their team mates. Since the desk they wanted me to move to was all the way across the floor I pointed out that this would leave me sitting far away from my own team mates and thus it would not exactly be a net improvement. It took a few tries, but eventually they understood that I was declining to move, and it never went any further than that. I was rather surprised that they didn’t even consider that they might be making an ineffectual decision.

itronitron 4y ago
For me, the real dehumanizing aspect is the one-sided and covert rewriting of the workplace rules. They could easily get the same information they want by having people sign in, or reserve space in time increments (although I'm not really sure how this lab works in terms of allocating space.) In that case everyone knows what data is recorded and its level of detail.
- db48x 4y ago
  Yea, that would be a big part of it. All cooperation in a group comes from understanding and agreeing to that group’s rules, and traditionally from having some say in what those rules are. But there is also the lack of respect for personal privacy, personal belongings, etc shown by moving someone else’s stuff. And to cowardly wait until someone is in a meeting to move their office, rather than risk a confrontation? Wow. You know, there is a story in Peopleware, by Tom DeMarco and Tim Lister, about how office assignments are handled in large, successful software companies. The team that needs offices is sent by their manager to whoever is in charge of the facilities. There they learn about the various office buildings they have, the floor plans of the rooms that are available, what furniture is readily to hand, and so on. Together the team picks one or more offices, furnishes them, etc. To me that almost sounds like a myth from a long–lost golden age. But working from home has lots of advantages too, so I’m going to keep doing that rather than try to join IBM or whatever.

floren 4y ago

> The original issue remains: the people at the desks are seen as cattle to be more efficiently packed, undeserving of their own space. Not just that, if I read the article correctly the administration wants to free up lab space so they can move in themselves!