6 ms·

> It's not like things changed after... iraq, iraq 2, afghanistan, syria and many others... Conscription is a huge difference. Hundreds of thousands were sent

by nequo 4y ago

> It's not like things changed after... iraq, iraq 2, afghanistan, syria and many others... Conscription is a huge difference. Hundreds of thousands were sent to Vietnam against their will. > Somehow occupying sovereign countries and killing kids is a bad thing only when putin does it. Ugh this both sideism.

bombcar 4y ago
I see it as less “both sideism” and more “maybe we can be the baddies too”.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  We are the baddies. I live in a small EU country, and have soldiers in syria now. We could atleast have pulled them back home, before pointing a finger at putin, but we didn't even do that (and they'd all fit in a minibus). We're currently destroying our own economies because someone else is doing something that we've been doing for years now. Technically we deserve being cold and maybe some kind of a revolution, because we've deserved it for destroying countries all around the world, but I'd prefer things to stop and normalize before we all freeze to death here.
  - nequo 4y ago
    Especially as someone from a small EU country, this seems completely different to me, unless living in a Putin puppet state is an acceptable alternative to you. Invading other countries is bad (including when the EU does it). Invading and massacring Ukraine is bad. Both can be true at the same time. And only because we haven’t eliminated the first doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fight the second.
    - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
      But we don't even plan to eliminate the first. How can we point the finger at putin, if we're doing the same as him? We're literally standing on a pile of middle-eastern bodies (let's not forget why the middle eastern crisis even started), and screaming "...but putin!". Look at the french for example... they have literally their embassies burning now, because people want their army out of their sovereign country, and the media sits quiet, mentioning maybe "some protests". The EU is threathening Hungary for wanting to buy russian gas, while sitting quiet about France. Why should putin have to stop, if we don't? And if we care for peoples lives and sovereign countries, why don't we care about the ones we're destroying right now?
  - ethanbond 4y ago
    Did your country just send soldiers to Syria when it was thriving independent state? Or was it when there was a brutal civil war and the state used chemical weapons against civilian populations?
    - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
      Yeah, same as iraq had wmds and afghanistan had to be attacked because some saudis were bad pilots. Yes, my country had soldiers in all the mentioned countries too.
      - ethanbond 4y ago
        Ooof. It’s pretty clear you’re not interested in a sincere conversation. Have a good weekend!
ajsnigrutin 4y ago
And the ones sent to iraq wanted to be there... and die there? Or to afghanistan? Can't afford US college? Go to army! Can't afford a doctor? Army will fix you up! Join, a few peaceful years at a few bases, you'll have a college degree, you'll make mama proud, just sign here, you're 18 already, you can't buy beer yet, but you can join the army! Add some "fighting for US freedom" propaganda, and end up as a homeless disabled veteran after the war.
- ethanbond 4y ago
  All of that is terrible and it’s still not conscription.
Roark66 4y ago
>Somehow occupying sovereign countries and killing kids is a bad thing only when putin does it. If you don't see a difference between a war where soldiers that rape and pillage are criminals in their own country, where questionable decisions that caused civilian suffering are widely condemned, a war that saw very large domestic movement against it as it unfolded and another one where rape, torture, slavery, ethnic genocide and killing/exploiting of innocent people is an openly admitted state policy with the worst offenders getting decorated for it, with the majority of the population not only in support, but craving blood, more torture and use of nuclear weapons. I have no words to convince you. I can only hope that you will reflect on this in future.
- unity1001 4y ago
  > If you don't see a difference between a war where soldiers that rape and pillage are criminals in their own country All of those are claims that are made by the very ones who lied 8 years about nonexistent WMDs. Moreover, the Ukrainian minister who made those lies up was fired by the Ukrainian government because even the govt. found it way too extreme. She is now busy backstabbing her former employers by saying that "They made me lie that way"...
  - Roark66 4y ago
    What claims? I'm in a country where 4 million refugees came(domestic population of 36mln). When they talk of the atrocities, when they show you videos of their own killed, raped/tortured neighbors they find in their homes, when they show you videos taken on their cellphones of piles of naked female bodies drenched in gas, with few tires thrown on top and lit on Russian forces escape routes literaly right after they left. Videos they took while in panic mode, fight g with themselves wanting to leave this horrible scenes ASAP, but they make those videos because they want the world to see the truth. Then when you see videos taken of things found by incoming soldiers. Holes in the ground with hundreds of civilian people with their hands tied and bullet in the back of their head. I work with AI I know how deep fakes look like. Those are not deep fakes. Those are all cellphone videos taken from hand, with audio, showing everything including the person taking it and local landmarks. Then you have one of the most notorious units where individual torturers and tormentors identified by name, this unit gets decorated by Putin. At the same time you have Russian gov-controlled media openly calling for killing every Ukrainian and every commentary cheering them. When all this happens and some people say "this is same lies as iraqi wmd". They are either trolls, shills or they live life so sheltered that they never had to discover what Russian soldiers do in areas they enter. Here in Poland we had Russians here few times at war time and no one has to convince us what they do. I'm old enough to have had WW2 survives come to my primary school and give us first hand accounts. Back then those that escaped concentration camps and PL in general were telling people in the West what was going on. They too were disbelieved. BTW, this is not the "first time in modern time" they do it. They did the same thing in Chechnya and Syria. The difference is that today everyone has a high quality video recorder in their pocket and communication with the entire world so all their atrocities are plain to see to everyone.

by nequo 4y ago

bombcar 4y ago

I see it as less “both sideism” and more “maybe we can be the baddies too”.

ajsnigrutin 4y ago
We are the baddies. I live in a small EU country, and have soldiers in syria now. We could atleast have pulled them back home, before pointing a finger at putin, but we didn't even do that (and they'd all fit in a minibus). We're currently destroying our own economies because someone else is doing something that we've been doing for years now. Technically we deserve being cold and maybe some kind of a revolution, because we've deserved it for destroying countries all around the world, but I'd prefer things to stop and normalize before we all freeze to death here.
- nequo 4y ago
  Especially as someone from a small EU country, this seems completely different to me, unless living in a Putin puppet state is an acceptable alternative to you. Invading other countries is bad (including when the EU does it). Invading and massacring Ukraine is bad. Both can be true at the same time. And only because we haven’t eliminated the first doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fight the second.
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    But we don't even plan to eliminate the first. How can we point the finger at putin, if we're doing the same as him? We're literally standing on a pile of middle-eastern bodies (let's not forget why the middle eastern crisis even started), and screaming "...but putin!". Look at the french for example... they have literally their embassies burning now, because people want their army out of their sovereign country, and the media sits quiet, mentioning maybe "some protests". The EU is threathening Hungary for wanting to buy russian gas, while sitting quiet about France. Why should putin have to stop, if we don't? And if we care for peoples lives and sovereign countries, why don't we care about the ones we're destroying right now?
- ethanbond 4y ago
  Did your country just send soldiers to Syria when it was thriving independent state? Or was it when there was a brutal civil war and the state used chemical weapons against civilian populations?
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    Yeah, same as iraq had wmds and afghanistan had to be attacked because some saudis were bad pilots. Yes, my country had soldiers in all the mentioned countries too.
    - ethanbond 4y ago
      Ooof. It’s pretty clear you’re not interested in a sincere conversation. Have a good weekend!

ajsnigrutin 4y ago

And the ones sent to iraq wanted to be there... and die there? Or to afghanistan? Can't afford US college? Go to army! Can't afford a doctor? Army will fix you up! Join, a few peaceful years at a few bases, you'll have a college degree, you'll make mama proud, just sign here, you're 18 already, you can't buy beer yet, but you can join the army! Add some "fighting for US freedom" propaganda, and end up as a homeless disabled veteran after the war.

ethanbond 4y ago
All of that is terrible and it’s still not conscription.

Roark66 4y ago

>Somehow occupying sovereign countries and killing kids is a bad thing only when putin does it. If you don't see a difference between a war where soldiers that rape and pillage are criminals in their own country, where questionable decisions that caused civilian suffering are widely condemned, a war that saw very large domestic movement against it as it unfolded and another one where rape, torture, slavery, ethnic genocide and killing/exploiting of innocent people is an openly admitted state policy with the worst offenders getting decorated for it, with the majority of the population not only in support, but craving blood, more torture and use of nuclear weapons. I have no words to convince you. I can only hope that you will reflect on this in future.

unity1001 4y ago
> If you don't see a difference between a war where soldiers that rape and pillage are criminals in their own country All of those are claims that are made by the very ones who lied 8 years about nonexistent WMDs. Moreover, the Ukrainian minister who made those lies up was fired by the Ukrainian government because even the govt. found it way too extreme. She is now busy backstabbing her former employers by saying that "They made me lie that way"...
- Roark66 4y ago
  What claims? I'm in a country where 4 million refugees came(domestic population of 36mln). When they talk of the atrocities, when they show you videos of their own killed, raped/tortured neighbors they find in their homes, when they show you videos taken on their cellphones of piles of naked female bodies drenched in gas, with few tires thrown on top and lit on Russian forces escape routes literaly right after they left. Videos they took while in panic mode, fight g with themselves wanting to leave this horrible scenes ASAP, but they make those videos because they want the world to see the truth. Then when you see videos taken of things found by incoming soldiers. Holes in the ground with hundreds of civilian people with their hands tied and bullet in the back of their head. I work with AI I know how deep fakes look like. Those are not deep fakes. Those are all cellphone videos taken from hand, with audio, showing everything including the person taking it and local landmarks. Then you have one of the most notorious units where individual torturers and tormentors identified by name, this unit gets decorated by Putin. At the same time you have Russian gov-controlled media openly calling for killing every Ukrainian and every commentary cheering them. When all this happens and some people say "this is same lies as iraqi wmd". They are either trolls, shills or they live life so sheltered that they never had to discover what Russian soldiers do in areas they enter. Here in Poland we had Russians here few times at war time and no one has to convince us what they do. I'm old enough to have had WW2 survives come to my primary school and give us first hand accounts. Back then those that escaped concentration camps and PL in general were telling people in the West what was going on. They too were disbelieved. BTW, this is not the "first time in modern time" they do it. They did the same thing in Chechnya and Syria. The difference is that today everyone has a high quality video recorder in their pocket and communication with the entire world so all their atrocities are plain to see to everyone.