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Maybe I am tinfoiling too hard... In February this year there was an attack against Vodafone Portugal that brought down their whole mobile networks, 4G, 5G, an

Maybe I am tinfoiling too hard... In February this year there was an attack against Vodafone Portugal that brought down their whole mobile networks, 4G, 5G, and fiber, taking them several days to bring everything back up [0]. It also very clearly was a state actor, no threats, no ransom, sophisticated. Taking down pipelines, taking down comms, taking down transport infrastructure. All within a few months. Always on NATO targets, always localized, never claimed with any statements, always sophisticated enough that it would require knowledgeable state actors. It all seems like a training ground to find out if they can do it and probably a message to NATO members to not assume they are safe. [0] https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2022/02/vodafone-portugal-struggles-to-restore-service-following-cyberattack/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2022/02/vodaf...

rongopo 4y ago
Same feelings about those bridges in Italy not too long ago.
Semaphor 4y ago
I’m feeling that way, too, but I’m also aware of confirmation bias (or maybe it’s a different bias?), similar things might happen normally, but we don’t remember them because they are unrelated events in other years, yet now we make connections where none are. > always sophisticated enough that it would require knowledgeable state actors. Maybe I’m missing something, but that doesn’t seem to be the case here?
captainmuon 4y ago
Yeah but I would assume the same attack is not going to be successfully against the same target a second time. So they are essentially providing free pentesting. And creating a climate that allows governments to introduce much stronger security measures. Without creating much actual damage. Also I wonder if it was a physical oder purely software attack? If it was a physical attack on a critical system, it could have been anybody, not just state actors.
- gberger 4y ago
  > Yeah but I would assume the same attack is not going to be successfully against the same target a second time. That's a bold assumption
  - microjim 4y ago
    Chaos engineering... for public infrastructure? :)
  - euroderf 4y ago
    And that's why the CIA started this merry band of shadowy infrastructure hackers :)
- hendrikrassmann 4y ago
  There are reports that a cable was severed. (https://twitter.com/gebauerspon/status/1578706469570351104 https://twitter.com/gebauerspon/status/1578706469570351104) But it's just a tweet. Don't know for sure.
  - Xylakant 4y ago
    Tagesschau, citing the federal police, reports that two cables at two locations in germany were cut https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/bahn-sabotage-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/bahn-sabotage-101.html The locations are a few hundred kilometers apart.
    - GekkePrutser 4y ago
      That doesn't mean it wasn't a state actor, the act itself can be done by anyone but knowing which cables to cut for maximum effect does require knowledge. Considering it was two cables I wonder if they were part of the same fibre ring. Usually with those if the cable gets cut the traffic can route the other way around the loop. This is why they use rings instead of simple links. It's because fibre cables are easy to cut by mistake, a digging machine will cut through it without knowing. Unlike the old backbone cables of old that were thick as a sewer pipe and carried thousands of cable pairs and heavy armour.
chiefalchemist 4y ago
How is this tinfoiling? The tinfoiler would think it's an inside (NATO) job. That these things are being done to maintain the fear, to increase the military budgets (i.e., money that could be spent on social programs), to increase the us v them unity, etc. Like 1984? But perhaps The MIC qualifies as a state actor? As it's said...follow the money. There are so many entities that benefit from such things it's difficult to say. Was it X? Was it Y making it look like X? Unless there's indisputable evidence then it's always hard to say. Easy to assume. But hard to say.
- ajross 4y ago
  > That these things are being done to maintain the fear, to increase the military budgets Somehow I think the shooting war in Europe right now is doing that just fine without the need for tinfoil. If there's anything that does not need to be further incentivized among European populations and governments right now, it's NATO coordination.
  - chiefalchemist 4y ago
    From your side of the fence, I'd imagine that's true. On the other hand, as I understand it, the other side some years ago expressed concerns about encouragement on their borders*. In fact, I've heard it said there was an agreement that wouldn't happen...then it did. But that depth is lost? How convenient. Once you accept (?) the lies about the WMDs then it becomes clear that there are actors that have no bounds. Believe what you must, but chance are good it's based on one side of the story (as it so often is). * Very similar to UBL saying get out of our neighborhood, or else. But we don't want to talk about that as it dilutes the strength of the propaganda.
    - ajross 4y ago
      Meh. All I'm saying is that when real bullets are flying, you'll find you have a much (much) harder time selling people on conspiracy theories. Trying to convince people that it's really western illuminati at fault works poorly when it was the other side that rolled the tanks.
Roark66 4y ago
Here in north-east Poland we're quite used to it. The most frequent are GPS spoofing and lte jamming. Its not like they even try to hide their location or anything. If I was to put my tinfoil hat on I would say those current attacks concentrate on Germany because due to long standing influence of Russians on German politics German's political class is a de-facto ally of Russia (against the will of its own population). Those attack's purpose is to scare ordinary Germans into letting their politicians continue pretend they help while they continue doing all in their power to help Putin's regime(or its equivalent under a different name).
- luckylion 4y ago
  I don't buy that theory. First of all: outside of the party "Die Linke" and the left wing of the SPD, there's little ideological friendship to Russia in German politics, it's either regular corruption (Gerhard Schröder) or industrial politics ("you give us cheap energy, we keep our eyes closed and don't mention the smell"). If anything, actions like these will make Germans more willing to spend extra money on defense, suffer during the shift to different energy providers, and support Ukraine. As it's usually the case with these events, it's easy to find motives if you discount the possibility of being caught. The US might do it for the reasons I mentioned. The German govt might do it to make the population more willing to follow orders. Some anti-capitalist group might do it because ... idk, trains are evil (they've been sabotaging mostly local trains in/around Berlin in the past decade or so, but they typically claim their actions, so we'll see). The DB might be behind it to get more money to upgrade & secure their infrastructure. I'm pretty sure it wasn't me, but everyone else has a motive.
  - Roark66 4y ago
    >don't buy that theory. First of all: outside of the party "Die Linke" and the left wing of the SPD, there's little ideological friendship to Russia in German politics, it's either regular corruption (Gerhard Schröder) or industrial politics ("you give us cheap energy, we keep our eyes closed and don't mention the smell"). You don't buy what? Why does there have to be "ideological friendship" for two groups of criminals to cooperate and root for each other? It has been obvious to anyone looking at actual actions made rather than words and political theater.
baybal2 4y ago
sneak 4y ago
NATO is big. There is nothing as yet to suggest this is international and not just normal domestic crime.
poopnugget 4y ago
Its NATO
someotherpersom 4y ago
Regarding the pipelines, it seems odd to call them a NATO target when they’re largely owned by Russia. Likewise, Russia had more to gain from just holding the gas supply hostage by stopping it, but offering to return the supply were Europe to give in to demands after a cold winter or two. Meanwhile, did you watch the video of Biden threatening to take them out from this past February?

rongopo 4y ago

Same feelings about those bridges in Italy not too long ago.

Semaphor 4y ago

I’m feeling that way, too, but I’m also aware of confirmation bias (or maybe it’s a different bias?), similar things might happen normally, but we don’t remember them because they are unrelated events in other years, yet now we make connections where none are. > always sophisticated enough that it would require knowledgeable state actors. Maybe I’m missing something, but that doesn’t seem to be the case here?

captainmuon 4y ago

Yeah but I would assume the same attack is not going to be successfully against the same target a second time. So they are essentially providing free pentesting. And creating a climate that allows governments to introduce much stronger security measures. Without creating much actual damage. Also I wonder if it was a physical oder purely software attack? If it was a physical attack on a critical system, it could have been anybody, not just state actors.

gberger 4y ago
> Yeah but I would assume the same attack is not going to be successfully against the same target a second time. That's a bold assumption
- microjim 4y ago
  Chaos engineering... for public infrastructure? :)
- euroderf 4y ago
  And that's why the CIA started this merry band of shadowy infrastructure hackers :)
hendrikrassmann 4y ago
There are reports that a cable was severed. (https://twitter.com/gebauerspon/status/1578706469570351104 https://twitter.com/gebauerspon/status/1578706469570351104) But it's just a tweet. Don't know for sure.
- Xylakant 4y ago
  Tagesschau, citing the federal police, reports that two cables at two locations in germany were cut https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/bahn-sabotage-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/bahn-sabotage-101.html The locations are a few hundred kilometers apart.
  - GekkePrutser 4y ago
    That doesn't mean it wasn't a state actor, the act itself can be done by anyone but knowing which cables to cut for maximum effect does require knowledge. Considering it was two cables I wonder if they were part of the same fibre ring. Usually with those if the cable gets cut the traffic can route the other way around the loop. This is why they use rings instead of simple links. It's because fibre cables are easy to cut by mistake, a digging machine will cut through it without knowing. Unlike the old backbone cables of old that were thick as a sewer pipe and carried thousands of cable pairs and heavy armour.

chiefalchemist 4y ago

How is this tinfoiling? The tinfoiler would think it's an inside (NATO) job. That these things are being done to maintain the fear, to increase the military budgets (i.e., money that could be spent on social programs), to increase the us v them unity, etc. Like 1984? But perhaps The MIC qualifies as a state actor? As it's said...follow the money. There are so many entities that benefit from such things it's difficult to say. Was it X? Was it Y making it look like X? Unless there's indisputable evidence then it's always hard to say. Easy to assume. But hard to say.

ajross 4y ago
> That these things are being done to maintain the fear, to increase the military budgets Somehow I think the shooting war in Europe right now is doing that just fine without the need for tinfoil. If there's anything that does not need to be further incentivized among European populations and governments right now, it's NATO coordination.
- chiefalchemist 4y ago
  From your side of the fence, I'd imagine that's true. On the other hand, as I understand it, the other side some years ago expressed concerns about encouragement on their borders*. In fact, I've heard it said there was an agreement that wouldn't happen...then it did. But that depth is lost? How convenient. Once you accept (?) the lies about the WMDs then it becomes clear that there are actors that have no bounds. Believe what you must, but chance are good it's based on one side of the story (as it so often is). * Very similar to UBL saying get out of our neighborhood, or else. But we don't want to talk about that as it dilutes the strength of the propaganda.
  - ajross 4y ago
    Meh. All I'm saying is that when real bullets are flying, you'll find you have a much (much) harder time selling people on conspiracy theories. Trying to convince people that it's really western illuminati at fault works poorly when it was the other side that rolled the tanks.

Roark66 4y ago

Here in north-east Poland we're quite used to it. The most frequent are GPS spoofing and lte jamming. Its not like they even try to hide their location or anything. If I was to put my tinfoil hat on I would say those current attacks concentrate on Germany because due to long standing influence of Russians on German politics German's political class is a de-facto ally of Russia (against the will of its own population). Those attack's purpose is to scare ordinary Germans into letting their politicians continue pretend they help while they continue doing all in their power to help Putin's regime(or its equivalent under a different name).

luckylion 4y ago
I don't buy that theory. First of all: outside of the party "Die Linke" and the left wing of the SPD, there's little ideological friendship to Russia in German politics, it's either regular corruption (Gerhard Schröder) or industrial politics ("you give us cheap energy, we keep our eyes closed and don't mention the smell"). If anything, actions like these will make Germans more willing to spend extra money on defense, suffer during the shift to different energy providers, and support Ukraine. As it's usually the case with these events, it's easy to find motives if you discount the possibility of being caught. The US might do it for the reasons I mentioned. The German govt might do it to make the population more willing to follow orders. Some anti-capitalist group might do it because ... idk, trains are evil (they've been sabotaging mostly local trains in/around Berlin in the past decade or so, but they typically claim their actions, so we'll see). The DB might be behind it to get more money to upgrade & secure their infrastructure. I'm pretty sure it wasn't me, but everyone else has a motive.
- Roark66 4y ago
  >don't buy that theory. First of all: outside of the party "Die Linke" and the left wing of the SPD, there's little ideological friendship to Russia in German politics, it's either regular corruption (Gerhard Schröder) or industrial politics ("you give us cheap energy, we keep our eyes closed and don't mention the smell"). You don't buy what? Why does there have to be "ideological friendship" for two groups of criminals to cooperate and root for each other? It has been obvious to anyone looking at actual actions made rather than words and political theater.

baybal2 4y ago

sneak 4y ago

NATO is big. There is nothing as yet to suggest this is international and not just normal domestic crime.

poopnugget 4y ago

Its NATO

someotherpersom 4y ago

Regarding the pipelines, it seems odd to call them a NATO target when they’re largely owned by Russia. Likewise, Russia had more to gain from just holding the gas supply hostage by stopping it, but offering to return the supply were Europe to give in to demands after a cold winter or two. Meanwhile, did you watch the video of Biden threatening to take them out from this past February?