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I guess you missed the "cut off military supplies"[0][1] on that short list. This was a fast track to supply and support the invasion. I don't agree with you b

I guess you missed the "cut off military supplies"[0][1] on that short list. This was a fast track to supply and support the invasion. I don't agree with you because I don't see how you can justify the other side of an invasion and constant annexation attempts of territory. The ridiculous thing is that all of this can stop if Russia simply packs up and leaves Ukraine - no one will follow them into Russia. No one cares for that. Of course it's not that simple because there will be consequences, internal and external, for decades probably. But there should be consequences when you invade other countries. [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilXX-u5eZoQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilXX-u5eZoQ [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GQCT8UKIlw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GQCT8UKIlw Edit: let's not forget that Russia considered as legitimate military targets over the past couple of months: damns, power stations, hospitals, and other civilian infrastructures.

sschueller 4y ago
"how you can justify the other side" So we can't ask questions and criticize what the west is doing? How is my statement in anyway justifying the other side? This is an illegal war and I never would in any way try to justify what Russia is doing. Claming I am apologetic for what Russia is doing in anyway is a personal insult.
- libertine 4y ago
  So, in your point of view what is the west doing that's worth questioning? From the top of my head: - Supplying Ukraine with humanitarian and military aid? - Sanctioning Russia? - Trying to mediate peace talks since before the war begun, and extensively after it started? Trying to enforce international law? - Upholding agreements of the Budapest Memorandum, where US, UK and Russia (lol) gave security guarantees to Ukraine after the denuclearization? I don't see what is so nefarious on the west actions. Of course the Russia narrative: "if you keep supplying arms you're just prolonging the war" -> because they want to take over the country, and stomp Ukraine. Edit: Now maybe what's questionable is the rhetoric - "Russia can't/won't/must/etc...", maybe it's "diplomatically condescending" and could be disrespectful, but in the light of Russia's' actions, it's more than suitable.
  - sschueller 4y ago
    We are not even talking to Russia. What happened to trying to talk them out of it? The only thing I see is that we are trying to remove Russia by force (maybe the correct solution but we should try all avenues even if they don't lead anywhere). Where is the pressure from India and China? Why aren't we heavily working for example with India to provide more pressure?
    - libertine 4y ago
      I don't know much, if anything about geopolitics or diplomacy (to the point of finding some stuff absurd)... but after this period of escalations, especially the ones from Russia, with the whole sham referendums and annexations, I think the global positions are set. Neither India or China care enough to do anything about it. They had plenty of opportunities over this period of time - and I must assume there were talks from the west in this matter. So looks like we're heading to a split world. Regarding talking Russia out, officially there were plenty of attempts, which ended up with Russia escalations at the end of them all. You need to remember that part of this game now is about the survival of Putin... and I see no way how he can save face - even with the help from the west. He put himself, and Russia, into a position where there's no way out unless it's defeat and humiliation. The only way I see is to prolong this for decades until he dies of old age, and that's that.
      - theironhammer 4y ago
        A big part of this war is the USA showing China this what we are capable of, this is what we will do should you ever question USA hegemony.
        libertine 4y ago
        That makes no sense in my point of view.
    - scrollaway 4y ago
      > What happened to trying to talk them out of it? There's two ways to read this question. It could be a legitimate question, as in "We used to try to talk them out of it and it seems like we aren't doing it anymore - what happened?"; or it could be that you're advocating for someone (who?) to talk to Russia. I'll answer both. We did try to talk to Russia at the beginning of the war. My own president, Emmanuel Macron, was asked by Zelenskyy himself to talk directly to Putin. Which he did, extensively, to the point people were criticizing him for doing it too much. We stopped, because Putin is simply no longer rational. It is not possible to negotiate with him. Zelenskyy even publicly said just a few days ago that he is willing to negotiate with Russia, "just not with Putin". Source: https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/09/30/7369844/ https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/09/30/7369844/ I am going to assume you mean well, as the guidelines recommend we all do. To that end, I would ask you not to play armchair war general and "just ask questions!", as if "hey have we tried asking Russia to stop" never occured to anybody. Ukraine does not want this war, any more than someone with cancer wants chemotherapy. They're fighting for their life. And more than their life, they're fighting for you and me. I see you're in Switzerland - Hi from Brussels! - Ukraine's fight is ours. Ukraine is Europe. We're under attack. This war is ours as well, and yet, Ukrainians are the ones giving their lives for us. Don't start thinking Russia will stop there; calling for nuclear annihilation of europe is a prime TV talking point over there (One of many many examples, via The Telegraph: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4eJvwtQJu4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4eJvwtQJu4)
- smcl 4y ago
  As an aside no matter what your intent or is, the "just asking questions!" angle is now a pretty huge red flag for many people as it's a well-known tactic to slowly introduce extreme beliefs into the mainstream. I know the HN guidelines say "Assume good faith", but by now you cannot be surprised if people react strongly when you do this.
  - libertine 4y ago
    I admit that this is a red flag for me, because from my latest experience it degenerates into "whataboutism", which is part of the russian rhetoric. "What about Iraq war? What about NATO expansions?..." as a means to justify the invasion.
    - theironhammer 4y ago
      What about the civil war in Ukraine since 2014? What about the Minsk accords that Zelenksy was elected to implement but didn't? That was the wish of the Ukrainian people. There are factions in Ukraine who wanted war with Russia. It's not about justifying the Russian invasion or defending it. Its about if you provoke a war you'll get a war.
      - libertine 4y ago
        What about all of that? Those are internal affairs of Ukraine, which they were addressing internally through democracy. If there were factions in Ukraine who wanted war with Russia... where were they? When did they invade russia? Also... why the hell does a "faction" want go war against Russia? Makes no sense. There were no provocations. The only provocation was the will of the Ukrainian people.
koshergweilo 4y ago
Just to add to your edit: didn't Russia blow up a month or so ago? https://youtu.be/dxpMbC1QaZE https://youtu.be/dxpMbC1QaZE

sschueller 4y ago

"how you can justify the other side" So we can't ask questions and criticize what the west is doing? How is my statement in anyway justifying the other side? This is an illegal war and I never would in any way try to justify what Russia is doing. Claming I am apologetic for what Russia is doing in anyway is a personal insult.

libertine 4y ago
So, in your point of view what is the west doing that's worth questioning? From the top of my head: - Supplying Ukraine with humanitarian and military aid? - Sanctioning Russia? - Trying to mediate peace talks since before the war begun, and extensively after it started? Trying to enforce international law? - Upholding agreements of the Budapest Memorandum, where US, UK and Russia (lol) gave security guarantees to Ukraine after the denuclearization? I don't see what is so nefarious on the west actions. Of course the Russia narrative: "if you keep supplying arms you're just prolonging the war" -> because they want to take over the country, and stomp Ukraine. Edit: Now maybe what's questionable is the rhetoric - "Russia can't/won't/must/etc...", maybe it's "diplomatically condescending" and could be disrespectful, but in the light of Russia's' actions, it's more than suitable.
- sschueller 4y ago
  We are not even talking to Russia. What happened to trying to talk them out of it? The only thing I see is that we are trying to remove Russia by force (maybe the correct solution but we should try all avenues even if they don't lead anywhere). Where is the pressure from India and China? Why aren't we heavily working for example with India to provide more pressure?
  - libertine 4y ago
    I don't know much, if anything about geopolitics or diplomacy (to the point of finding some stuff absurd)... but after this period of escalations, especially the ones from Russia, with the whole sham referendums and annexations, I think the global positions are set. Neither India or China care enough to do anything about it. They had plenty of opportunities over this period of time - and I must assume there were talks from the west in this matter. So looks like we're heading to a split world. Regarding talking Russia out, officially there were plenty of attempts, which ended up with Russia escalations at the end of them all. You need to remember that part of this game now is about the survival of Putin... and I see no way how he can save face - even with the help from the west. He put himself, and Russia, into a position where there's no way out unless it's defeat and humiliation. The only way I see is to prolong this for decades until he dies of old age, and that's that.
    - theironhammer 4y ago
      A big part of this war is the USA showing China this what we are capable of, this is what we will do should you ever question USA hegemony.
      - libertine 4y ago
        That makes no sense in my point of view.
  - scrollaway 4y ago
    > What happened to trying to talk them out of it? There's two ways to read this question. It could be a legitimate question, as in "We used to try to talk them out of it and it seems like we aren't doing it anymore - what happened?"; or it could be that you're advocating for someone (who?) to talk to Russia. I'll answer both. We did try to talk to Russia at the beginning of the war. My own president, Emmanuel Macron, was asked by Zelenskyy himself to talk directly to Putin. Which he did, extensively, to the point people were criticizing him for doing it too much. We stopped, because Putin is simply no longer rational. It is not possible to negotiate with him. Zelenskyy even publicly said just a few days ago that he is willing to negotiate with Russia, "just not with Putin". Source: https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/09/30/7369844/ https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/09/30/7369844/ I am going to assume you mean well, as the guidelines recommend we all do. To that end, I would ask you not to play armchair war general and "just ask questions!", as if "hey have we tried asking Russia to stop" never occured to anybody. Ukraine does not want this war, any more than someone with cancer wants chemotherapy. They're fighting for their life. And more than their life, they're fighting for you and me. I see you're in Switzerland - Hi from Brussels! - Ukraine's fight is ours. Ukraine is Europe. We're under attack. This war is ours as well, and yet, Ukrainians are the ones giving their lives for us. Don't start thinking Russia will stop there; calling for nuclear annihilation of europe is a prime TV talking point over there (One of many many examples, via The Telegraph: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4eJvwtQJu4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4eJvwtQJu4)
smcl 4y ago
As an aside no matter what your intent or is, the "just asking questions!" angle is now a pretty huge red flag for many people as it's a well-known tactic to slowly introduce extreme beliefs into the mainstream. I know the HN guidelines say "Assume good faith", but by now you cannot be surprised if people react strongly when you do this.
- libertine 4y ago
  I admit that this is a red flag for me, because from my latest experience it degenerates into "whataboutism", which is part of the russian rhetoric. "What about Iraq war? What about NATO expansions?..." as a means to justify the invasion.
  - theironhammer 4y ago
    What about the civil war in Ukraine since 2014? What about the Minsk accords that Zelenksy was elected to implement but didn't? That was the wish of the Ukrainian people. There are factions in Ukraine who wanted war with Russia. It's not about justifying the Russian invasion or defending it. Its about if you provoke a war you'll get a war.
    - libertine 4y ago
      What about all of that? Those are internal affairs of Ukraine, which they were addressing internally through democracy. If there were factions in Ukraine who wanted war with Russia... where were they? When did they invade russia? Also... why the hell does a "faction" want go war against Russia? Makes no sense. There were no provocations. The only provocation was the will of the Ukrainian people.

koshergweilo 4y ago

Just to add to your edit: didn't Russia blow up a month or so ago? https://youtu.be/dxpMbC1QaZE https://youtu.be/dxpMbC1QaZE