5 ms·

Liberating the Smalltalk lurking in C and Unix (2014) [video]

91 points by Kinrany 4y ago

retrocryptid 4y ago
Interesting, sure, but isn't this just reinventing image-based development from Smalltalk, FORTH and Lisp Machines? (Don't get me wrong. I think the kid's onto something. Just why only look at Smalltalk? Plenty of other image-based systems from the 70s and 80s.)
chasil 4y ago
Smalltalk was originally a language for children, similar to Logo. It is unfortunate that its youth was not thus preserved. "Smalltalk was created to investigate teaching programming to children. Understandably, it's a very small and simple language, the simplest of the major programming languages." https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/1241904/Introduction-to-the-Smalltalk-Programming-Language https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/1241904/Introduction-to...
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  In what sense is Smalltalk smaller than Lisp?
  - chasil 4y ago
    Heck, I don't know! I just wish these languages preserved their sense of ingenuity and wonder, before putting on the iron maidens of their frameworks. I wish there was a C for children, but explaining indirect addressing and the evolution of indexed pointers is a bridge too far.
    - coderdd 4y ago
      Having read the book Dealers of Lightning about Xerox PARC and Kay,I think Smalltalk 72 was the original smaller simple language, with which children were taught. Then others at Xerox added more professional stuff, the kind programmers would want, which resulted in Smalltalk 76 and so on. These were not as approachable for children anymore allegedly. Nowadays there's Squeak which is a Smalltalk implementation, which influenced Scratch I think (first version of Scratch was written in Squeak). Search the internet for Adam Kay's documents on Squeak and educating children, helps to put on context what he had in mind (if you, like me, just install Squeak and expect a stunning tutorial... it's not like that, at least I didn't find). Kay also said, having an IDE only takes you to the 70s from the 60s too... So there's work to be done yet.
      - rileyphone 4y ago
        There's even a pretty fun documentary on the Squeak project, with Seymour Papert, Alan, and Jerome Bruner. [0] Or, if you want to go further back, read the original "Personal Dynamic Media" papers. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndkW61OUA20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndkW61OUA20
  - ergonaught 4y ago
    The claim in the quote is that Smalltalk is the simplest, not the smallest. That may only beg the question, but yay clarity.
    - chasil 4y ago
      If we still had a language as simple as Logo, but as powerful to express objects to a young mind, would be a beautiful thing. We should strive for such simplicity.
      - alisonatwork 4y ago
        Wren seems pretty simple to me: https://wren.io/ https://wren.io/
      - qsort 4y ago
        Lua? Seems to be working fine in stuff for young people, e.g. Roblox.
  - bumblebritches5 4y ago
  - zelphirkalt 4y ago
    Smalltalk only has 6 keywords and everything is done via sending messages to objects. How many language constructs and keywords does Lisp have? Ultimately different philosophies are at work. Smalltalk makes many objects and has the power to introspect on them (classes are also objects), Lisp has facilities to introspect and do meta programming using macros, making new keywords, so of course the language will grow. That is the whole point. Growing a language for solving specific problems. Smalltalk makes new objects instead.
    - anthk 4y ago
      R5RS Scheme? It's not so big. Common Lisp, OTOH...
      - MonkeyClub 4y ago
        I think the OP is referring to the pseudo-variables, true, false, nil, self, super, and thisContext: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalltalk#Syntax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalltalk#Syntax I don’t think they count. If we’re counting small numbers, Lisp also has a small number of “keywords”, nine: quote atom eq cons car cdr lambda label define Others put this number at five or seven. I guess you can express define as a function of label and lambda, so you drop to eight, but I don’t know how you get to seven, let alone five.
        zelphirkalt 4y ago
        Not sure how Smalltalk measures up in that regard, but wouldn't one also need to count things like define-syntax and all things, which are built-in for defining macros? I guess that would only be fair, because that gets Lisps up to the same power level as Smalltalk with its introspection and ability to create classes at runtime, since they are objects as well. Then there are things like "What is the syntax for a vector?" and all kinds of reader syntax with "# + something", depending on the dialect/specific lisp language, I guess. EDIT: Found this: https://wiki.c2.com/?SmalltalkSyntaxInaPostcard https://wiki.c2.com/?SmalltalkSyntaxInaPostcard
        mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
macintux 4y ago
Worth noting: Alex Miller has announced next year will be the last Strange Loop conference. If you’ve never been, I can’t recommend it highly enough. https://ti.to/strange-loop/2023/en https://ti.to/strange-loop/2023/en
- Ygg2 4y ago
  Damn shame. Why is it stopping?
  - macintux 4y ago
    https://mailchi.mp/thestrangeloop/strange-loop-2021-cfp-5896589 https://mailchi.mp/thestrangeloop/strange-loop-2021-cfp-5896...
- bhrgunatha 4y ago
  That's a blow, it's such a good conference. This post led me to check and the 2022 videos have started being uploaded to youtube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLcGKfGEEONaDO2dvGEdodnqG5cSnZ96W1 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLcGKfGEEONaDO2dvGEdod...
adamnemecek 4y ago
I really can’t wait for the time when something replaces Unix, C, and Smalltalk culturally.
- bitwize 4y ago
  Rust (and Redox).
- keyle 4y ago
  Ok, I'll bite. What is wrong culturally with our computing history/culture?
  - coderdd 4y ago
    Not saying I align 100% with this, but certainly gives a perspective on Unix and C: https://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html https://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html
    - justoreply 4y ago
      nice link (if you are clicking it directly) :)
    - teddyh 4y ago
      Better link (from the actual author of the text, and without referrer tricks for links from HN): https://dreamsongs.com/RiseOfWorseIsBetter.html https://dreamsongs.com/RiseOfWorseIsBetter.html
  - adamnemecek 4y ago
    It’s just beating a dead horse. It’s been 50 years dudes. Maybe it’s time to come up with something better.
spindle 4y ago
I love this video! I'm sad to say that it has nothing at all to do with Smalltalk. Its topic is an attempt to make all programs that run in Linux (and similar systems) able to access each others' data structures, including each others' functions, using new work built on the debugging facilities that unixes already have. The big picture is that so-called static languages actually provide enough information (via debugging mechanisms) so that OTHER languages can treat them as if they were dynamic languages, and (really fun big picture stuff) can potentially automate discovery of their structure to the extent that all languages can interoperate without FFIs.
- kwhitefoot 4y ago
  This sounds like the kind of interoperability that I have been looking for ever since I started programming fifty years ago. I wonder if anything will ever come of it.
nishikantamajhi 4y ago
anthk 4y ago
I would like Smalltalk if I could export the image to an standalone r/o application with ease.
- jecel 4y ago
  Digitalk's Smalltalk V was pretty good at this. You got a nearly empty v.exe file which called a bunch of .dll files which contained the various parts of the standard image. Anything you did yourself would be added to v.exe so when you were ready to ship you just had to send the client that plus a subset of the .dll files (enough for your application to run, but not the development environment). For a short while in the 1990s Smalltalk V/Win was available at no cost with the name Smalltalk Express.
jhbadger 4y ago
In case anyone is interested in the actual system that Kell talks about, liballocs, it is still being developed eight years later and is on github at: https://github.com/stephenrkell/liballocs/ https://github.com/stephenrkell/liballocs/

91 points by Kinrany 4y ago

Interesting, sure, but isn't this just reinventing image-based development from Smalltalk, FORTH and Lisp Machines? (Don't get me wrong. I think the kid's onto something. Just why only look at Smalltalk? Plenty of other image-based systems from the 70s and 80s.)

chasil 4y ago

Smalltalk was originally a language for children, similar to Logo. It is unfortunate that its youth was not thus preserved. "Smalltalk was created to investigate teaching programming to children. Understandably, it's a very small and simple language, the simplest of the major programming languages." https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/1241904/Introduction-to-the-Smalltalk-Programming-Language https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/1241904/Introduction-to...

AnimalMuppet 4y ago
In what sense is Smalltalk smaller than Lisp?
- chasil 4y ago
  Heck, I don't know! I just wish these languages preserved their sense of ingenuity and wonder, before putting on the iron maidens of their frameworks. I wish there was a C for children, but explaining indirect addressing and the evolution of indexed pointers is a bridge too far.
  - coderdd 4y ago
    Having read the book Dealers of Lightning about Xerox PARC and Kay,I think Smalltalk 72 was the original smaller simple language, with which children were taught. Then others at Xerox added more professional stuff, the kind programmers would want, which resulted in Smalltalk 76 and so on. These were not as approachable for children anymore allegedly. Nowadays there's Squeak which is a Smalltalk implementation, which influenced Scratch I think (first version of Scratch was written in Squeak). Search the internet for Adam Kay's documents on Squeak and educating children, helps to put on context what he had in mind (if you, like me, just install Squeak and expect a stunning tutorial... it's not like that, at least I didn't find). Kay also said, having an IDE only takes you to the 70s from the 60s too... So there's work to be done yet.
    - rileyphone 4y ago
      There's even a pretty fun documentary on the Squeak project, with Seymour Papert, Alan, and Jerome Bruner. [0] Or, if you want to go further back, read the original "Personal Dynamic Media" papers. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndkW61OUA20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndkW61OUA20
- ergonaught 4y ago
  The claim in the quote is that Smalltalk is the simplest, not the smallest. That may only beg the question, but yay clarity.
  - chasil 4y ago
    If we still had a language as simple as Logo, but as powerful to express objects to a young mind, would be a beautiful thing. We should strive for such simplicity.
    - alisonatwork 4y ago
      Wren seems pretty simple to me: https://wren.io/ https://wren.io/
    - qsort 4y ago
      Lua? Seems to be working fine in stuff for young people, e.g. Roblox.
- bumblebritches5 4y ago
- zelphirkalt 4y ago
  Smalltalk only has 6 keywords and everything is done via sending messages to objects. How many language constructs and keywords does Lisp have? Ultimately different philosophies are at work. Smalltalk makes many objects and has the power to introspect on them (classes are also objects), Lisp has facilities to introspect and do meta programming using macros, making new keywords, so of course the language will grow. That is the whole point. Growing a language for solving specific problems. Smalltalk makes new objects instead.
  - anthk 4y ago
    R5RS Scheme? It's not so big. Common Lisp, OTOH...
    - MonkeyClub 4y ago
      I think the OP is referring to the pseudo-variables, true, false, nil, self, super, and thisContext: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalltalk#Syntax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalltalk#Syntax I don’t think they count. If we’re counting small numbers, Lisp also has a small number of “keywords”, nine: quote atom eq cons car cdr lambda label define Others put this number at five or seven. I guess you can express define as a function of label and lambda, so you drop to eight, but I don’t know how you get to seven, let alone five.
      - zelphirkalt 4y ago
        Not sure how Smalltalk measures up in that regard, but wouldn't one also need to count things like define-syntax and all things, which are built-in for defining macros? I guess that would only be fair, because that gets Lisps up to the same power level as Smalltalk with its introspection and ability to create classes at runtime, since they are objects as well. Then there are things like "What is the syntax for a vector?" and all kinds of reader syntax with "# + something", depending on the dialect/specific lisp language, I guess. EDIT: Found this: https://wiki.c2.com/?SmalltalkSyntaxInaPostcard https://wiki.c2.com/?SmalltalkSyntaxInaPostcard
      - mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago

macintux 4y ago

Worth noting: Alex Miller has announced next year will be the last Strange Loop conference. If you’ve never been, I can’t recommend it highly enough. https://ti.to/strange-loop/2023/en https://ti.to/strange-loop/2023/en

Ygg2 4y ago
Damn shame. Why is it stopping?
- macintux 4y ago
  https://mailchi.mp/thestrangeloop/strange-loop-2021-cfp-5896589 https://mailchi.mp/thestrangeloop/strange-loop-2021-cfp-5896...
bhrgunatha 4y ago
That's a blow, it's such a good conference. This post led me to check and the 2022 videos have started being uploaded to youtube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLcGKfGEEONaDO2dvGEdodnqG5cSnZ96W1 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLcGKfGEEONaDO2dvGEdod...

adamnemecek 4y ago

I really can’t wait for the time when something replaces Unix, C, and Smalltalk culturally.

bitwize 4y ago
Rust (and Redox).
keyle 4y ago
Ok, I'll bite. What is wrong culturally with our computing history/culture?
- coderdd 4y ago
  Not saying I align 100% with this, but certainly gives a perspective on Unix and C: https://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html https://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html
  - justoreply 4y ago
    nice link (if you are clicking it directly) :)
  - teddyh 4y ago
    Better link (from the actual author of the text, and without referrer tricks for links from HN): https://dreamsongs.com/RiseOfWorseIsBetter.html https://dreamsongs.com/RiseOfWorseIsBetter.html
- adamnemecek 4y ago
  It’s just beating a dead horse. It’s been 50 years dudes. Maybe it’s time to come up with something better.

spindle 4y ago

I love this video! I'm sad to say that it has nothing at all to do with Smalltalk. Its topic is an attempt to make all programs that run in Linux (and similar systems) able to access each others' data structures, including each others' functions, using new work built on the debugging facilities that unixes already have. The big picture is that so-called static languages actually provide enough information (via debugging mechanisms) so that OTHER languages can treat them as if they were dynamic languages, and (really fun big picture stuff) can potentially automate discovery of their structure to the extent that all languages can interoperate without FFIs.

kwhitefoot 4y ago
This sounds like the kind of interoperability that I have been looking for ever since I started programming fifty years ago. I wonder if anything will ever come of it.

nishikantamajhi 4y ago

anthk 4y ago

I would like Smalltalk if I could export the image to an standalone r/o application with ease.

jecel 4y ago
Digitalk's Smalltalk V was pretty good at this. You got a nearly empty v.exe file which called a bunch of .dll files which contained the various parts of the standard image. Anything you did yourself would be added to v.exe so when you were ready to ship you just had to send the client that plus a subset of the .dll files (enough for your application to run, but not the development environment). For a short while in the 1990s Smalltalk V/Win was available at no cost with the name Smalltalk Express.

jhbadger 4y ago

In case anyone is interested in the actual system that Kell talks about, liballocs, it is still being developed eight years later and is on github at: https://github.com/stephenrkell/liballocs/ https://github.com/stephenrkell/liballocs/