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That's in addition to major recalls on all Lucids and GM Bolts. As much as we need to majorly reduce emissions and hit a 99% EV future, I think it's fair to say

That's in addition to major recalls on all Lucids and GM Bolts. As much as we need to majorly reduce emissions and hit a 99% EV future, I think it's fair to say that consumers are Beta-testers for EV's that aren't Teslas right now. A hard pill to swallow when you know a Toyota RAV4 is going to hit 200k+ miles no problem.

thevagrant 4y ago
Feel the same. I wanted to buy an EV but my habit has been to buy a 10 year old car and drive it until it is 20 years old. EVs don't appear to fit well in that use case until batteries can be replaced affordably. Even then, the new models have huge screens and electronics integrated throughout, chances are slim those parts will be easily repaired 10+ years down the line.
- simfree 4y ago
  There are many Fiat 500e and Nissan Leafs on the road that are cheap and closing in on a decade old. The Fiats generally are above 90% battery health at 80k miles since they only support level 2 charging or slower, so you don't need battery replacement. Nissan Leafs have many options for battery replacement, but the 2011 era ones had a bad battery chemistry so you should probably avoid buying one with the original battery. There are also some electric Smart cars out there that are fun to drive!
  - uxp100 4y ago
    Unfortunately used 500es have gone from around 7k to around 14k, which is a much less compelling price for a deeply flawed vehicle. Otoh, if you like that size, I tend to feel there will never be small EVs that are still full speed cars again, so…
    - simfree 4y ago
      The flaws of the 500e are pretty manageable if you accept that it's just an around town car, but this means you probably want it as an addition to your fleet of cars, or want to have the option to borrow or cheaply rent a long distance vehicle when needed. The current runup in used prices for the 500e is crazy though, there is no way a 500e should be as valuable as a Ford Fusion Energi Titanium. The longer range of the 500e and lower maintenance needed might partially justify this.
- dangus 4y ago
  Unfortunately you’re going to find the electronics problem across the auto industry regardless of whether your next vehicle is electric or not. If you’re currently driving a 10-15 year old vehicle you just aren’t seeing it yet. There is no 2022 car you can buy without some kind of electronics integration. I think battery replacements will only get more affordable. On top of that, you can weigh that cost against the alternative of purchasing gasoline and burning it away. With gasoline being controlled by cartels and becoming more difficult every year to extract, my bet is on electricity being the better option, especially considering all the residential solar generation options becoming available. Every year you drive 15,000 miles in a gas car burns $2,000 of fuel assuming 30MPG at $4/gallon. Maybe you avoid needing to replace a battery in every 10-15 years but that gas you burned is gone forever. And, sure, electric cars aren’t cheaper right now overall. Someone like you who buys used/fully depreciated vehicles will not see the value of an electric vehicle. However, they offer a number of advantages that people are willing to pay for: they drive incredibly well (the F-150 lighting is the best driving F-150 money can buy), they save cargo and passenger space, they’re quiet and smooth, and they eliminate trips to the gas station for people who have their own garage or driveway. For many people willing to spend more money on cars than you’re willing to spend, they’re worth paying extra for.
hacym 4y ago
I rented a Tesla in a recent trip to California because I wanted to see what it’d be like to depend on one for a week. It was a Model Y, and driving it completely dissuaded me from ever wanting a Tesla. At least in the copy I was driving, everything felt cheap. Rattles everywhere, piece of plastic had to be snapped back into place, it was lacking features I’d expect in an $60k vehicle, etc. I realize that it’s a rental car and might be seeing more use or misuse than normal, but doesn’t bode well for long term ownership. Past that, though, Tesla made a horrendous design decision to hide everything in the menus of the screen. The most basic tasks that every car built in the last 80 years would have at your fingertips required me to hunt around. It’s a big distraction to hit two or three buttons on screen just to fiddle with an annoying digital slider to adjust the airflow. It might fit their definition of “futuristic” but it’s a case study in very bad UX. Driving the damn thing was obviously fun, but I don’t think it’s fair to not include Tesla as still in beta mode. Based on my anecdotal experience they still have a long way to go to perfecting the car part of their car. Time will tell how well all of the 3s and Ys rolling off the assembly line will actually hold up.
- canadianfella 4y ago
- dangus 4y ago
  The model year of a Model Y makes a huge difference since it’s their most recent design. If it was ~2020 it’s not going to be built anywhere near as well as a current model. More recent examples added dual pane windows and have had a number of changes to the suspension. The earliest ones off the line did not ride well. It’s unfortunate that Tesla is willing to ship cars that don’t meet a decent build standard, but if you do wait a few years into their production you will get a better vehicle. Also keep in mind: with all that touch screen stuff, when you actually own the car all those settings are part of your driver profile. You don’t have to hunt down the whole menu of every setting you want to change because you’ve already changed them and saved them to your profile. The voice controls cover a large part of the car’s functionality as well. Finally, it’s important to realize that any electric car will feel $10-15k “cheaper” than an equivalent ICE car. That’s how much the giant battery costs extra over the cost of an engine and gas tank. This phenomenon isn’t unique to Tesla. The Bolt EUV doesn’t feel like a $40k vehicle, an equivalent gas version would probably go for $25k. The Hyundai Ioniq 5 looks like an Elantra inside. IMO, people see Tesla as a “luxury car” and start comparing it to e-trons and Taycans that cost tens of thousands of dollars more and get worse driving range. People used to extremely well-built luxury cars don’t realize that GM, Ford, and Hyundai are no strangers to squeaks, rattles, and assembly issues (e.g., the new Ford Bronco roof). New model releases from other brands also have early assembly issues, they just don’t get the press and attention that Tesla does due to its novelty.
hotpotamus 4y ago
Does this recall have anything to do with using an EV powertrain? I doubt there is a vehicle marketed that never had some recall on it, though the severity will differ a lot. I wonder if the recalls mentioned perhaps just get more press since the EV market is heating up and is more newsy.
dangus 4y ago
This is a bit dramatic, conventional cars get recalled all the time.
yellowapple 4y ago
Recalls like this happen for ICE vehicles all the time; this is hardly unique to EVs.

thevagrant 4y ago

Feel the same. I wanted to buy an EV but my habit has been to buy a 10 year old car and drive it until it is 20 years old. EVs don't appear to fit well in that use case until batteries can be replaced affordably. Even then, the new models have huge screens and electronics integrated throughout, chances are slim those parts will be easily repaired 10+ years down the line.

simfree 4y ago
There are many Fiat 500e and Nissan Leafs on the road that are cheap and closing in on a decade old. The Fiats generally are above 90% battery health at 80k miles since they only support level 2 charging or slower, so you don't need battery replacement. Nissan Leafs have many options for battery replacement, but the 2011 era ones had a bad battery chemistry so you should probably avoid buying one with the original battery. There are also some electric Smart cars out there that are fun to drive!
- uxp100 4y ago
  Unfortunately used 500es have gone from around 7k to around 14k, which is a much less compelling price for a deeply flawed vehicle. Otoh, if you like that size, I tend to feel there will never be small EVs that are still full speed cars again, so…
  - simfree 4y ago
    The flaws of the 500e are pretty manageable if you accept that it's just an around town car, but this means you probably want it as an addition to your fleet of cars, or want to have the option to borrow or cheaply rent a long distance vehicle when needed. The current runup in used prices for the 500e is crazy though, there is no way a 500e should be as valuable as a Ford Fusion Energi Titanium. The longer range of the 500e and lower maintenance needed might partially justify this.
dangus 4y ago
Unfortunately you’re going to find the electronics problem across the auto industry regardless of whether your next vehicle is electric or not. If you’re currently driving a 10-15 year old vehicle you just aren’t seeing it yet. There is no 2022 car you can buy without some kind of electronics integration. I think battery replacements will only get more affordable. On top of that, you can weigh that cost against the alternative of purchasing gasoline and burning it away. With gasoline being controlled by cartels and becoming more difficult every year to extract, my bet is on electricity being the better option, especially considering all the residential solar generation options becoming available. Every year you drive 15,000 miles in a gas car burns $2,000 of fuel assuming 30MPG at $4/gallon. Maybe you avoid needing to replace a battery in every 10-15 years but that gas you burned is gone forever. And, sure, electric cars aren’t cheaper right now overall. Someone like you who buys used/fully depreciated vehicles will not see the value of an electric vehicle. However, they offer a number of advantages that people are willing to pay for: they drive incredibly well (the F-150 lighting is the best driving F-150 money can buy), they save cargo and passenger space, they’re quiet and smooth, and they eliminate trips to the gas station for people who have their own garage or driveway. For many people willing to spend more money on cars than you’re willing to spend, they’re worth paying extra for.

hacym 4y ago

I rented a Tesla in a recent trip to California because I wanted to see what it’d be like to depend on one for a week. It was a Model Y, and driving it completely dissuaded me from ever wanting a Tesla. At least in the copy I was driving, everything felt cheap. Rattles everywhere, piece of plastic had to be snapped back into place, it was lacking features I’d expect in an $60k vehicle, etc. I realize that it’s a rental car and might be seeing more use or misuse than normal, but doesn’t bode well for long term ownership. Past that, though, Tesla made a horrendous design decision to hide everything in the menus of the screen. The most basic tasks that every car built in the last 80 years would have at your fingertips required me to hunt around. It’s a big distraction to hit two or three buttons on screen just to fiddle with an annoying digital slider to adjust the airflow. It might fit their definition of “futuristic” but it’s a case study in very bad UX. Driving the damn thing was obviously fun, but I don’t think it’s fair to not include Tesla as still in beta mode. Based on my anecdotal experience they still have a long way to go to perfecting the car part of their car. Time will tell how well all of the 3s and Ys rolling off the assembly line will actually hold up.

canadianfella 4y ago
dangus 4y ago
The model year of a Model Y makes a huge difference since it’s their most recent design. If it was ~2020 it’s not going to be built anywhere near as well as a current model. More recent examples added dual pane windows and have had a number of changes to the suspension. The earliest ones off the line did not ride well. It’s unfortunate that Tesla is willing to ship cars that don’t meet a decent build standard, but if you do wait a few years into their production you will get a better vehicle. Also keep in mind: with all that touch screen stuff, when you actually own the car all those settings are part of your driver profile. You don’t have to hunt down the whole menu of every setting you want to change because you’ve already changed them and saved them to your profile. The voice controls cover a large part of the car’s functionality as well. Finally, it’s important to realize that any electric car will feel $10-15k “cheaper” than an equivalent ICE car. That’s how much the giant battery costs extra over the cost of an engine and gas tank. This phenomenon isn’t unique to Tesla. The Bolt EUV doesn’t feel like a $40k vehicle, an equivalent gas version would probably go for $25k. The Hyundai Ioniq 5 looks like an Elantra inside. IMO, people see Tesla as a “luxury car” and start comparing it to e-trons and Taycans that cost tens of thousands of dollars more and get worse driving range. People used to extremely well-built luxury cars don’t realize that GM, Ford, and Hyundai are no strangers to squeaks, rattles, and assembly issues (e.g., the new Ford Bronco roof). New model releases from other brands also have early assembly issues, they just don’t get the press and attention that Tesla does due to its novelty.

hotpotamus 4y ago

Does this recall have anything to do with using an EV powertrain? I doubt there is a vehicle marketed that never had some recall on it, though the severity will differ a lot. I wonder if the recalls mentioned perhaps just get more press since the EV market is heating up and is more newsy.

dangus 4y ago

This is a bit dramatic, conventional cars get recalled all the time.

yellowapple 4y ago

Recalls like this happen for ICE vehicles all the time; this is hardly unique to EVs.