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Thankfully someone is pushing against the hype, good for him. Thank god. It really frustrates me when people, particularly people on here specifically respond

Thankfully someone is pushing against the hype, good for him. Thank god. It really frustrates me when people, particularly people on here specifically respond to criticism of NNs and the like by saying nonsense like "but YOUR brain is a neural net!" as if all your brain is but mimickry after all and there's nothing else. There is this need to reduce all the mind's complexity down to a model that you seem to understand, just because you understand it, which seems like such a lazy, reductionist way to think. Reductionism in general has value but it tends to narrow the mind. I feel like Gary Marcus is right, you don't just need the mimickry even if it plays a role, you do need "symbolic" understanding somewhere, and that makes it easier to determine whether Trump is president vs. Biden at the moment, as they talk about in the article. You do need concepts (symbols) deep down somewhere, it seems so bizarre to think you don't because no one even in their own lives lives that way or thinks that way. I mean literally right now, me reading and writing comments on hacker news is all about ideas and concepts, symbols in the philosophical sense. I feel like even if it started as mimickry when I was an infant, eventually the mimickry takes a life of its own, I figure out concepts themselves, and I no longer even work in mere mimickry, I work with symbols. It reminds me of Baudrillard's concept (unintended pun, I think) of simulacra, it's not that simulacra are just representations of the real and are thus fake, like money represents some amount of food or gold or something and so money is fake. Money, as we all know, is in fact very real! Our daily lives are shaped around it, they shape our reality, things like loans, credit, bank accounts, stock markets eventually become things we care about. Money is therefore hardly fake. Eventually the simulacra develop a reality of their own, in fact, they become hyperreal. Ideas are the same, and any real AI will need them.

everly 4y ago
Oh, he loves to push against the hype alright. To his credit, he’s very smart - I think he sold an AI startup to Uber several years ago. And I agree with a lot of his criticisms and general AI philosophy. Still, it’s impossible for me to shake the feeling that he just likes to hear himself talk and doesn’t want to see progress in AI. I think I trust him more than Sam Altman though, not that anyone’s being asked to make that judgement.
- ripe 4y ago
  > Still, it’s impossible for me to shake the feeling that [Gary Marcus] just likes to hear himself talk and doesn’t want to see progress in AI. He says he wants to see progress in AI. He wants people to get their heads out of the neural network cul-de-sac and use other tools, too. His quote: "Imagine a world in which iron makers shouted “iron,” and carbon lovers shouted “carbon,” and nobody ever thought to combine the two [to make steel]; that’s much of what the history of modern artificial intelligence is like." [1] An adjustment will happen when the limitations of these purely statistical methods play out and burn a few self-driving car investors. Unfortunately, it will also probably taint the entire field of AI and start another AI winter for a decade or so. [1] https://nautil.us/deep-learning-is-hitting-a-wall-238440/ https://nautil.us/deep-learning-is-hitting-a-wall-238440/
  - everly 4y ago
    Thanks, that's a worthy addition (and good example of what I mean about agreeing with his philosophy). I was probably a bit too uncharitable in saying he doesn't want to see progress.

everly 4y ago

Oh, he loves to push against the hype alright. To his credit, he’s very smart - I think he sold an AI startup to Uber several years ago. And I agree with a lot of his criticisms and general AI philosophy. Still, it’s impossible for me to shake the feeling that he just likes to hear himself talk and doesn’t want to see progress in AI. I think I trust him more than Sam Altman though, not that anyone’s being asked to make that judgement.

ripe 4y ago
> Still, it’s impossible for me to shake the feeling that [Gary Marcus] just likes to hear himself talk and doesn’t want to see progress in AI. He says he wants to see progress in AI. He wants people to get their heads out of the neural network cul-de-sac and use other tools, too. His quote: "Imagine a world in which iron makers shouted “iron,” and carbon lovers shouted “carbon,” and nobody ever thought to combine the two [to make steel]; that’s much of what the history of modern artificial intelligence is like." [1] An adjustment will happen when the limitations of these purely statistical methods play out and burn a few self-driving car investors. Unfortunately, it will also probably taint the entire field of AI and start another AI winter for a decade or so. [1] https://nautil.us/deep-learning-is-hitting-a-wall-238440/ https://nautil.us/deep-learning-is-hitting-a-wall-238440/
- everly 4y ago
  Thanks, that's a worthy addition (and good example of what I mean about agreeing with his philosophy). I was probably a bit too uncharitable in saying he doesn't want to see progress.