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It's sexism. Sexists don't like being called "sexists" because in today's ethical climate, that label is disapproved. Actually being a sexist, however, is not.

It's sexism. Sexists don't like being called "sexists" because in today's ethical climate, that label is disapproved. Actually being a sexist, however, is not. So they use lightly-coded language like drama, emotional, touchy, frustrated, paranoid and the sexism card. Thus, other sexists can applaud them without admitting to sexism. And on places like Hacker News, sexists can band together to defend themselves against accusations of sexism, using the downvote button to make opponents give up in disgust, leaving them to be sexists together and in mutual acknowledgement that they're not really sexist at all.

philwelch 15y ago
It's communism. Communists don't like being called "communists" because in today's political climate, that label is disapproved. Actually being a communist, however, is not. So they use lightly-coded language like 99%, special interests, police brutality, and equality. Thus, other communists can applaud them without admitting to communism. And on places like Reddit, communists can band together to defend themselves against accusations of communism, using the downvote button to make opponents give up in disgust, leaving them to be communists together and in mutual acknowledgement that they're not really communists at all. It's witchcraft. Witches don't like being called "witches" because in today's political climate, that label is disapproved. Actually being a witch, however, is not. So they use lightly-coded language like religious tolerance, atheism, rationalism, skepticism. Thus, other witches can applaud them without admitting to witchcraft. It's pedophilia. Pedophiles don't like being called "pedophiles" because in today's political climate, that label is disapproved. Actually being a pedophile, however, is not. So they use lightly-coded language like equal rights, LGBT, gay marriage. Thus, other pedophiles can applaud them without admitting to pedophilia.
- JulianMorrison 15y ago
  Communism as the only opposite to corrupt, massively unequal crony capitalism? Sounds like you're a communist, comrade. Except of course, that your whole response amounts to "waaah, Julian called me a sexist". Yes, I did. You are a sexist.
  - philwelch 15y ago
    I was identifying an unfair rhetorical tactic on your part. Not every criticism of abusive corporate and government practice amounts to communism, not every criticism of religious intolerance amounts to witchcraft, not every criticism of homophobia amounts to pedophilia, and not every criticism of a vague, venting blog post vaguely complaining about sexist treatment without really illustrating it amounts to sexism. I really don't give a shit whether you think I'm a sexist or not: frankly, the fact that you jump to that rather than actually engaging any of my points says more about you than about me. What I do give a shit about is people like you outright sabotaging reasonable discourse through nothing more than personal attacks.
    - JulianMorrison 15y ago
      Every word of what I wrote was meant literally and intended to describe the very real phenomenon of sexists who want to avoid the label "sexist" while being sexist, and who use their majority power in vote driven web sites, or their shout-down power in comment threads, to drive away anyone who attempts to apply the label "sexist" to them. And actually the same applies to the various other disapproved labels, such as "racist" and "homophobic" - in all these cases, liberal gains in the last 100 years or thereabouts have made owning the label in public uncomfortable. But so long as you can weasel around the label, the deed itself carries little opprobrium. And so we get this conspiracy of mutual non recognition. It's pretty clear, given that, that your picks for "scary label" are nonsense and evidence failed comprehension, or refused comprehension. Witches are not on the upside of a power gap, seeking to continue their witchy abuses while avoiding the label "witch". Sexists are.
      - philwelch 15y ago
        > It's pretty clear, given that, that your picks for "scary label" are nonsense and evidence failed comprehension, or refused comprehension. Witches are not on the upside of a power gap, seeking to continue their witchy abuses while avoiding the label "witch". Sexists are. "My witch-hunt is just, because in my case, the witches actually exist and really do secretly control society." The real problem is that complicated issues like this turn into exercises of identity. It happens on both sides; your side is filled with self-identified feminists immediately siding with anyone who makes an accusation of sexism. Straightforward statements pointing out that no sexism has actually been demonstrated or that it's rhetorically unfair to shield oneself from criticism for being emotional are themselves taken as expressions of sexism, in much the same way that anyone calling for moderation or pacifism was, in the Cold War, accused of being in cahoots with the communists. The result of this is that you alienate thoughtful people. On several occasions I've spoken out on HN against genuine sexism and in favor of genuine feminist interests. But I'm not interested in getting caught up in a tribalist ideological groupthink, and I have thoughtful criticism for dishonest rhetoric, and so you read me as "sexist", in the classic "you're either with us or against us" mindset (rephrased by contemporary leftists as "you're either part of the solution or part of the problem").
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
forensic 15y ago
Part of the issue is that engineers believe they are perfectly rational creatures with no feelings. What this actually means is that they are unaware of their feelings and so their feelings control them without them knowing it. Engineers can rarely see their own sexism precisely because, as a group, they lack self-knowledge and emotional intelligence. Groups that lack emotional intelligence are always the most oblivious to their own prejudice. Outsiders consider it obvious that engineers are sexist. Engineers themselves are oblivious. On top of that, engineers in general tend to have really inflated self-images. Many engineers just flat out think they are better than non-technical people. This arrogance means they are unwilling to accept criticism from non-engineers. Usually they deflect the criticism by claiming the person has no evidence or is making logical errors. What the engineer is really doing is missing the forest for the trees, being overly literal, failing to see things from the eyes of others, and demanding perfect evidence in situations where perfect evidence is unreasonable and unattainable.
- srbloom 15y ago
  Engineerist.
  - forensic 15y ago
    What is the difference between criticizing a group and being prejudiced towards a group? There is a difference.

philwelch 15y ago

It's communism. Communists don't like being called "communists" because in today's political climate, that label is disapproved. Actually being a communist, however, is not. So they use lightly-coded language like 99%, special interests, police brutality, and equality. Thus, other communists can applaud them without admitting to communism. And on places like Reddit, communists can band together to defend themselves against accusations of communism, using the downvote button to make opponents give up in disgust, leaving them to be communists together and in mutual acknowledgement that they're not really communists at all. It's witchcraft. Witches don't like being called "witches" because in today's political climate, that label is disapproved. Actually being a witch, however, is not. So they use lightly-coded language like religious tolerance, atheism, rationalism, skepticism. Thus, other witches can applaud them without admitting to witchcraft. It's pedophilia. Pedophiles don't like being called "pedophiles" because in today's political climate, that label is disapproved. Actually being a pedophile, however, is not. So they use lightly-coded language like equal rights, LGBT, gay marriage. Thus, other pedophiles can applaud them without admitting to pedophilia.

JulianMorrison 15y ago
Communism as the only opposite to corrupt, massively unequal crony capitalism? Sounds like you're a communist, comrade. Except of course, that your whole response amounts to "waaah, Julian called me a sexist". Yes, I did. You are a sexist.
- philwelch 15y ago
  I was identifying an unfair rhetorical tactic on your part. Not every criticism of abusive corporate and government practice amounts to communism, not every criticism of religious intolerance amounts to witchcraft, not every criticism of homophobia amounts to pedophilia, and not every criticism of a vague, venting blog post vaguely complaining about sexist treatment without really illustrating it amounts to sexism. I really don't give a shit whether you think I'm a sexist or not: frankly, the fact that you jump to that rather than actually engaging any of my points says more about you than about me. What I do give a shit about is people like you outright sabotaging reasonable discourse through nothing more than personal attacks.
  - JulianMorrison 15y ago
    Every word of what I wrote was meant literally and intended to describe the very real phenomenon of sexists who want to avoid the label "sexist" while being sexist, and who use their majority power in vote driven web sites, or their shout-down power in comment threads, to drive away anyone who attempts to apply the label "sexist" to them. And actually the same applies to the various other disapproved labels, such as "racist" and "homophobic" - in all these cases, liberal gains in the last 100 years or thereabouts have made owning the label in public uncomfortable. But so long as you can weasel around the label, the deed itself carries little opprobrium. And so we get this conspiracy of mutual non recognition. It's pretty clear, given that, that your picks for "scary label" are nonsense and evidence failed comprehension, or refused comprehension. Witches are not on the upside of a power gap, seeking to continue their witchy abuses while avoiding the label "witch". Sexists are.
    - philwelch 15y ago
      > It's pretty clear, given that, that your picks for "scary label" are nonsense and evidence failed comprehension, or refused comprehension. Witches are not on the upside of a power gap, seeking to continue their witchy abuses while avoiding the label "witch". Sexists are. "My witch-hunt is just, because in my case, the witches actually exist and really do secretly control society." The real problem is that complicated issues like this turn into exercises of identity. It happens on both sides; your side is filled with self-identified feminists immediately siding with anyone who makes an accusation of sexism. Straightforward statements pointing out that no sexism has actually been demonstrated or that it's rhetorically unfair to shield oneself from criticism for being emotional are themselves taken as expressions of sexism, in much the same way that anyone calling for moderation or pacifism was, in the Cold War, accused of being in cahoots with the communists. The result of this is that you alienate thoughtful people. On several occasions I've spoken out on HN against genuine sexism and in favor of genuine feminist interests. But I'm not interested in getting caught up in a tribalist ideological groupthink, and I have thoughtful criticism for dishonest rhetoric, and so you read me as "sexist", in the classic "you're either with us or against us" mindset (rephrased by contemporary leftists as "you're either part of the solution or part of the problem").

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

forensic 15y ago

Part of the issue is that engineers believe they are perfectly rational creatures with no feelings. What this actually means is that they are unaware of their feelings and so their feelings control them without them knowing it. Engineers can rarely see their own sexism precisely because, as a group, they lack self-knowledge and emotional intelligence. Groups that lack emotional intelligence are always the most oblivious to their own prejudice. Outsiders consider it obvious that engineers are sexist. Engineers themselves are oblivious. On top of that, engineers in general tend to have really inflated self-images. Many engineers just flat out think they are better than non-technical people. This arrogance means they are unwilling to accept criticism from non-engineers. Usually they deflect the criticism by claiming the person has no evidence or is making logical errors. What the engineer is really doing is missing the forest for the trees, being overly literal, failing to see things from the eyes of others, and demanding perfect evidence in situations where perfect evidence is unreasonable and unattainable.

srbloom 15y ago
Engineerist.
- forensic 15y ago
  What is the difference between criticizing a group and being prejudiced towards a group? There is a difference.